> > No maybe not, but everyone like yourself who has jumped on this so > > hard is being very unfair in not understanding or acknowledging that > > the request was inappropriately sent... > > Actually, I *did* understand it and acknowledge it, _and_ then I said it > was no excuse. No need to insist on this. I insist because although it might not be an excuse, it IS a factor that should be given consideration instead of just writing off such situations as evidence that that person, and worse, all FOSS developers, are assholes and nothing more. That kind of black and white thinking helps no one. > > [FOSS developers] send out hundreds of similarly-worded messages. > > yes, this is a general attitude problem. I've been fighting with the > problem it creates for years now. Please re-read that sentence. The hundreds of messages I am talking about are the messages that are polite and helpful, even in the face of (wrongly) demanding end users. So this is not a problem -- I mention it because those messages never get seen by anyone except the recipients; instead we see one bad example out of the hundreds of good ones and all of a sudden all these righteous people on Digg have condemned all FOSS developers once and for all. And that IS a problem and it IS preposterous. > > It's preposterous to over-generalize with statements like yours: > > "[this is] the problem for Squirrelmail and the general FOSS > > community". > > Personally, I have never had such problems because I do know how to > look and ask for FOSS support. I know that the FOSS community isn't > defined by such episodes (and I still remain a happy Squirrelmail > user, if that matter: I've always had useful, polite and pretty fast > support here when I needed). I am concerned about the general > problem. If you agree that those episodes do not define FOSS software, why do you turn around and call it a "general problem"? > The fact is that it is exactly many FOSS activist which, so > far, have never bothered: I don't understand what you are writing here. > > thinking about the human factors involved in such situations. > > that is how the whole rest of the world sees software I don't follow you, but my guess is that you are pointing out that "end users" tend to have a very "human" experience that is sometimes ridiculed when it shows up in geek-heavy forums. I think you CAN talk about geek culture (not just the FOSS community) as having that negative characteristic that is impatient with often confused and "more human" (huh?) end users, but the flip side of the coin is what is not being addressed here, which is what makes me frustrated. It's NOT a one-way street. > > However, if you or any such person continues to think that these > > kinds of attitudes are in fact what defines SquirrelMail and the > > rest of the FOSS community, > > I *know* this is not the case and actively work to change this > perception (see the "Opinions" section of the website in my signature > to know more). It's not what *I* think. It is a fact that one of the > reasons why FOSS in general isn't more used is just because the > average non geek is often treated in that way even when he or she > _asks_ that kind of questions in the right place. But there is a problem with assumptions here. I think the larger reason FOSS isn't used by technical laypeople is that a lot of FOSS is not geared toward them at all. That is something that is slowly changing, for better or worse, but the assumption that should be challenged is IF in fact that is the goal of the people building FOSS. What about the possibility that FOSS is the art form of the right-brained? What if FOSS developers do it because they derive their own satisfaction from it and sharing it with people who see the beauty in it and that it is NOT specifically made with technical laypeople in mind? The mistake in assuming otherwise is a very bad one, because it perverts a form of expression into something that people assume is being made for the same reason for-profit software is, and in many cases, it is VERY MUCH not. FOSS developers often get sucked into the false dichotomy and thinking that the goal should be to compete with commercial software and that "victory" equals millions of laypeople using their products. All that's to say I think part of the underlying problem with this discussion is the very capitalist attitude "the customer is always right", and the fact that the "customer" HAS to be the layperson. Ultimately, most FOSS developers probably don't mind (or rather enjoy) to have laypeople using their work, but to talk about "one of the biggest problems with FOSS is that it is not geared toward non-geeks" is to drain the soul out of the art for sure. And that's a shame. None of that is to say any human should ever get a pass for being inexcusably rude to another human, but that we shouldn't assume that the bottom line has to be so homogeneous as for-profit software is. It surely does not and SHOULD not. > > abuse and disrespect, and as far as I'm concerned, we don't actually > > owe you much more than what we are already giving. > > ?? Respect (not to me, referring to the original episode) and good > manners remain due "just because", at least at first contact: that was > the main point. I never once said otherwise. I just said that the reaction was way out of proportion and utterly and completely de-humanized Steve. Worse yet were those that broadened the stroke of their accusations to include the entire FOSS community, which is offensive and as inexcusable as any other part of the whole episode. > Of course one cannot _demand_ more *support* from a > FOSS developer than he or she is freely willing to give and is already > giving. > > > > This said, I'm happy for Squirrelmail that this story has at least > > > helped to make some documentation clearer and yes, it's time to go > > > on. > > I agree 100%. > > Marco > > -- > The right way to make everybody love Free Standards and Free Software: > http://digifreedom.net/node/73 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. 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