My 2 cents. I've found that people who buy into using frameworks think that it will establish order in the code, and improve the chances of a successful implimentation, and it sort of delivers on these two things most of the time. It never occurs to them that it also adds a level of complexity to your apps code (no free lunch here). Until you learn the ins and outs of the framework, much of your debugging time is spent fixing problems between your code and the framework, and sometimes between the framework and other things. IMO, the biggest factor in producing disorderly code is chasing evolving requirements, with and without a framework. Changing design requirements several times in a project will do that. Using a framework is not the guarantee you may be looking for (it could be, but it usually isn't). Warren Vail > -----Original Message----- > From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:quickshiftin@xxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:17 AM > To: Jay Blanchard > Cc: Tony Marston; php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Re: php framework vs just php? > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Blanchard <jblanchard@xxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > [snip] > > > [snip] > > > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are > writing nothing > > but > > > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when > it comes to > > >writing a proper application. > > >......If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity > > >WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. > > >\[/snip] > > > > > > Tony is obviously joking here folks. > > > > No I'm not. > > [/snip] > > > > My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were > better than > > all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of > > Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone > would not be > > offensive to others...oh well) > > > > You're right to a point, developers of large scale > applications in PHP > > will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small > framework but > > a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale > > applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher > > time/management factor involved but there are several > non-mickey mouse > > proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever. > > > > Different strokes for different folks. > > > > Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons? > > Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. > What framework > > should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to > know...it > > depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done. > > > i think once again we are faced with an vocabulary issue. > what framework means to one person, might not hold for > another. sure we can look at examples, code igniter, solar, > zend, interjinn and radicore etc. but what is a framework > really? there are plenty of definitions out there, but its > pointless to even post them because i know we have all > resigned to our own personal definitions as such. > what i have noticed working in the industry for several years > and several companies now is that every company has > eventually tacked something together whereby they created a > Rapid Application Development environment. so, if its time > for another one of those things; well we already know how to > do it, just use that code or w/e and add the new stuff or > changes to create this new thing; done. > its almost always the same story; some people are working on > something and darwins rules apply; the shitty code eventually > gets scrapped in favor of the nicer stuff the smart guys > write. and while that stuff may not be as great as some of > the stuff youll be able to find available for free download > on the web, its good enough to get the job done and stand in > place for years at a time. > that said, one thing i can tell you is that ive not seen a > single company using any of the freely available php > frameworks available on the web today. this is like the 4th > or 5th php shop im at so far. i have seen a greater tendency > to use frameworks from the java camp, but my suspicion is > that as php continues to age and mature companies will slowly > start to use the frameworks in their products. especially > ones getting started today and tomorrow. i think 5 years > back when a lot of the companies ive worked at were getting > started, there just werent as many options per frameworks and such. > also, getting more to a ramble; i should mention that while > none of the companies ive worked at have used any free > frameworks, many have used libraries, like pecl. > > -nathan > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
