[snip] The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. [/snip] We're not worthy...and many take less than 5 minutes. This is not the only real measure of a good framework, it is just one of many. I wrote a tool a long time ago that does the table/form/query bit in well under 5 minutes with several permutations. A good framework is measured by ease of use and solving of common problems. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php