--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 14:36 -0400 Barry Leiba <barryleiba@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> Unfortunately 87all@xxxxxxxx --the "announce" version of the >> list-- is where the really important things, like schedule >> changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there >> is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. > > Has anyone tried to subscribe on the listinfo page?: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87all > > I just did, using another email address, and that email > address got the normal "click here to confirm" response. Barry, I'm sorry to be difficult about this, but the point I was trying to make was about access by relatively remote relative newcomers. For them, at least, the question is not "does the listinfo page work if one can find it or guess at its URL". Instead, suppose such a person goes looking with reasonable knowledge of the information on the IETF home page, the meeting main page, and perhaps even the Tao and previous Newcomer's Introduction slides. So, first she goes to the Meetings page for this meeting (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/index.html). Seems like "Meeting Communication" would be a reasonable place to look, and, lo, there is a "Mailing Lists" entry there. It points to 87attendees (plus runners, companions, and food links). Dead end. So, back to the mail IETF page and the "Mailing Lists" entry and its links. 87all is an "Announcement List", but that page http://www.ietf.org/list/announcement.html) discusses only IETF-Announce, I-D-Announce, and IPR-Announce plus the IESG Agenda Distribution. No joy. If this lucky newcomer figures out that it is not a discussion list, she skips the Discussion List link (http://www.ietf.org/list/discussion.html) but all that is there is another link to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/email-list.html and hence information about 87attendees, etc. Not a hint so far that 87all even exists. So her (most IETF-type men would have run out of patience by now) adventure then takes her to the Non-WG Lists page (http://www.ietf.org/list/nonwg.html). It starts out by assuring the reader that, if the list exists, it will be listed (or at least that is how I would interpret "attempts to list all the active, publicly visible lists that are considered to be related to the IETF, but are not the main list of any working group, in alphabetical order by list name." as a rather strong indicate that 87all and 87announce ought to be listed there: they are certainly active and publicly visible and it would be hard to claim that they are not "relate to the IETF". No joy... neither list appears there. If we are serious about remote participants, that list should be known, advertised, and accessible unless it really isn't used for anything but local logistical information (as Joel suggests). But it didn't take me long to find examples of announcements there (and apparently nowhere else) that would be of interest to remote participants. Examples: * At IETF 86, the Thursday Lunchtime Panel was announced there and apparently nowhere else (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/86all/current/msg00033.html). I don't know if it was made available to remove participants or not but, if it wasn't and I were a remote participant with significant interest in the subject matter, I'd want to know about the presentation and have ample time to ask that appropriate arrangements be made. * I also found an agenda change announcement (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/86all/current/msg00031.html) that was apparently posted only there. This one might not count if the change was made before the meeting started. * However, if I go back a few more meetings, I find http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/84all/current/msg00010.html, which is a meeting room change. And meeting room changes affect audiocasts. Wanda's note about the web agenda is relevant, but our hypothetical newcomer isn't given that warning on the meeting page or, since she has been unable to subscribe to NNall, the announcements there. Recommendations, with some comment about things that aren't rocket science included by reference: (1) Put 87all and 87attendees on the Non-WG mailing list page. Or, perhaps better yet, mention there (as well as on the main discussion list page) that there are meeting-specific lists and include a link to the "Meeting Email Lists page". It couldn't hurt and might help. (2) Modify the meeting email lists page to discuss NNall as well as NNattendees and explain what it is for and that, while there will be some local logistics (maybe mostly local logistics), remote participants should probably keep an eye on it as well as ietf-announce. (3) While it is almost certainly too late to populate it before Berlin, I think the meeting page template could use a "Remote Participants" main section with pointers to hints and other relevant materials, including which mailing lists one should watch and that the web version of the meeting agenda should be refreshed at least daily. Wouldn't hurt to repeat the instructions about what to do if the feeds go bad there either. FWIW, I believe that doing the above would consume less net energy than has already been spent explaining why we don't need to do anything :-( john p.s. While my reasons for not being in Berlin didn't include examining our remote participation arrangements in practice, I think it is going to be educational, at least for me.