On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 06:12:38PM -0500, David Krider wrote:Then PLEASE read my comments:
I refuse to believe that this thread isn't being watched by people with
the power to at *least* influence changes in the new schema, if not
actually *make* those changes.
You're right, people who influence changes are reading this thread -
I'm still trying to go through all of it...
I think the prices are too high. Offer a third option for subscriptions: NO PHONE SUPPORT, NO E-MAIL or WEB SUPPORT, NO CD's, NO PAPER DOCs just RHN Enterprise subscription for the $96/year per server when ordering a minimum of 5 servers. I would consider this to be entirely fair.
Now, before you dismiss my comment offhand,
I actually read the RedHat published information:
http://www.redhat.com/software/whichlinux.html
Which has an important message:
"Now there's an important point we need to cover.
Red Hat Enterprise Linux is sold through a one-year subscription
and it does have a licensing agreement. But before you mention
the "p"-word ("proprietary"), understand that the code is open and
protected by the GPL license. It's not proprietary. We're licensing
the services, not the software. The source code files can be downloaded
by anyone, and you still have the right to use the software after the
license and services expire.
You're simply paying for the value Red Hat adds:
The enterprise enhancements, the ISV and IHV certification, the
support services included with the product, and the security and
software updates through Red Hat Enterprise Network."
===============================================================
And I read the
Subscription Agreement for Red Hat Enterprise Linux
at http://www.redhat.com/licenses/rhel_us_2-1.html?location=United+States&;
which has a TON of legaleese, and although IANAL, I understand that to mean that the CDROM's as a "whole work" were copyrighted, in the same way that Andy Worhol could take an image of the last supper, put a "Dove Soap Label" a "Campbell's Soup Label", a Sear's catalog image on it and then call the resulting work as a whole copyrighted, but the license also says:
...
As used herein, "EULA" means an end user license agreement,
and "Software Programs" means, collectively, the individual
Linux Programs, as defined below. Red Hat Enterprise Linux is a
modular operating system made up of hundreds of individual software
components, each of which was individually written and copyrighted,
and the EULA of each component is located in the source code for
the component. Throughout this document the components are
referred to as the "Linux Programs." Most of the Linux Programs
are licensed pursuant to a Linux EULA that permits Customer to
copy, modify, and redistribute the software, in both source code and
binary code forms. With the exception of certain image files identified
below, the remaining Linux Programs are freeware or have been placed
in the public domain. Customer must review these Linux EULAs
carefully, in order to understand its rights and to realize the maximum
benefits available with Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Nothing herein limits
Customer's rights under, or grants Customer rights that supersede, the
terms of any applicable Linux EULA. Red Hat may provide Red Hat
Enterprise Linux or other software or content by means of Red Hat Network
or Red Hat Enterprise Network. Each software component has its own
applicable EULA and all content is provided subject to its own licensing
terms.
...
And just below that, (after a warning about a few *NON* Open Source licenesed
software packages on the system).
...
Red Hat Enterprise Linux itself is a collective work under U.S. Copyright Law.
Subject to the trademark use limitations set forth below, Red Hat grants
Customer a license in this collective work pursuant to the GNU General
Public License.
....
Then I found that all the SRPM's are available online at public FTP sites. And I compared the MD5SUM's and sizes of these SRPM's with the ones available on RHN with my RH Enterprise AS subscription, they were the same.
I found that the RedHat Logo's license says that you are entitled to use the package
as is, without modification in any way to meet dependencies with other packages.
So, I donwloaded all the SRPM's from RedHat Mirror Sites. There was one SRPM
that was in the 7.2 updates direcotry, it wasn't in the AS2.1 updates directory
(I think it was openssl ?) I also noticed that sometimes the SRPM's on the FTP site
weren't as quickly available as they were when using RHN, but heck it is free.
I also excluded the IBMJDK from my worries, since I don't use it anyway. I download
the Sun Java package.
I recompiled all the SRPM's on the one RedHat Advanced Server that I do have
a license for, and put them all in an anonymous FTP share dir. I used the
Redhat anaconda tools to build the "RedHat/base/" files and copied the
netstg1.img and stage2.img files from the AS CD's into that dir.
A few of the RPM's wouldn't recompile, the ones I remember the most are
the pspell RPM's, but they were identical to the ones from RedHat 7.2
which are redistributable in binary form, so I just used those.
I then use a RedHat 7.2 bootnet install floppy to install servers over the network
using the RPMS that are compiled from the same set of SRPM's that RedHat Advanced
Server's RPM's are compiled from.
Note that I am *NOT* installing "RedHat" on my servers, I am installing a custom OS, that is just very much like RedHat Enterprise.
I even asked a RedHat engineer on the phone about this setup, and he said
"You are entirely within your rights to do this, but you won't get support from
ISV's or Hardware vendors for your servers that way. And RHN is great!"
He is right, the RHN Enterprise Subscription is GREAT. I have 25 Enterprise
subscriptions. And if I was going to pay several thousand dollars for an Oracle
License, and several thousand dollars a year for support, I wouldn't worry about
a few hundred bucks for "authentic" RHN support. However I wouldn't have
bought those 25 RHN Enterprise subscriptions if they had costs $179/year.
But at $96/year it was worth it.
However for other servers that are just running simple
http/ftp/firewall/cvs/postgres/owl/nntp/ntp/bind/dhcpd/mysql
arpwatch/snort/imap/sendmail/nagios/perl/nessus/NFS
and custom inhouse data processing work....
or, for non gaming workstations.I want an OS for which I can get updates for security problems
without having incompatability issues with the updates for more than 12 months.
And one where I am not FORCED to upgrade to stay secure every 12 months.
So I use my custom install from the CURRENT server using RPM's that I build from
SRPM's that I fetch from FTP sites.
What are the downsides?
Sometimes I have to wait a day or two before the SRPMs are grabable from an FTP site.
A little extra work on my side, to write a wget script to fetch any new SRPM's and
email me when they show up. I will iimprove this script soon to automatically attempt
to build the SRPMs into RPMs and auto-magically put them in the CURRENT server
for me.
And, unlike using my RHN Enterprise subscription where I can schedule multiple
servers to install sets of errata, I have to log into each server and manually run
up2date commands to do things.
However (repeating myself) these problems are not worth $179 per year to fix.
Not when I am considering deploying up to 60 servers over the next year.
But for 96 dollars a year..., well my company has already bought 25 of those,
and it has worked out well. But that $96 has to cover ES, not just WS.
-Ben.
