Glen,I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things. that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes for your integrity. clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or they exist in name only.
nothing changes your description of your state. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Glen, why would I bother? your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves. Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state. Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights. No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab systems like yours are Nfb puppets. The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes decisions using a NFB dictionary. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Karen, Start out at the web site for Nebraska Commission for the Blind. There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are appointed by the governor. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Do what? where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone they must use a certain tool. give them the chance in an office to try several things yes. Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no. I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although perhaps. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Please do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Glen, you are missing the point. A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a watchdog for your organization's activities. Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government funding. That role differs from a public servant, like yourself. In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is exactly why you should not be a member. if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not translate to the statement you freely made. Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective your office is in fact. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Karen, In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state conventions. So there is total transparency within the consumer groups. The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes. Some can go to either national convention on the state. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) wrong. Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the Nfb used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom scientific. That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy illustrates my point perfectly. There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would put a stop to the practice. allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on people's lives. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee should not preclude personal rights. Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined with dues. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) speaking personally? No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict of interest personified. Karen On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing. Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and cancelled my PAC plan. I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't need any from me. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive video, even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that time. 73 Butch WA0VJR Node 3148 Wallace, ks. On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly mistaken. On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in skills and high expectations. And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of choice. Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact that it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other organization in interpersonal staff issues. And choice does not mean training center choices. Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will reach the same end result. In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no questions asked. They would not have to fight to get it. I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the software that the counselor wants them to have. When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well enough to know he wouldn't make that up. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get them to buy window-eyes. 73 Butch WA0VJR Node 3148 Wallace, ks. On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:And where do these employers learn about jaws? In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works exactly. after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive program instead of a largely free one. On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Karen, Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors will use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need to learn one of the two. So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employer will allow. Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws scripters available than there are NVDA add-on writers. So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the business I can say is rubbish. Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be chosen, the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels is best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational purchases, where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best interest to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR expenditures do. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, the rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their clients is quite poor. With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you an exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. Fs would likely say where do we sign? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job. In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for work related situations. So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed purchase a JFL product. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say command line, the comments were quite informative. Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market to the American rehab community. how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need for choices? How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone brings their needs to the table there. if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is money for them there, from their main source of income. On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would not be able to do the same. If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought by another company. Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for Linux. That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options for creativity. however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics, hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts at inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools for various populations that were built into the system. Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. Just my thoughts, On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. JFL I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many more users into Linux. FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)"KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if KL> he KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is KL> dangerous, KL> because he is educating those outside of the KL> accessibility KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. KL> he has KL> to be expert, it is his job. Hi Karen, I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better informed. As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?�, what reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do. Regards, Milan
