Please do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Glen, you are missing the point. A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a watchdog for your organization's activities. Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government funding. That role differs from a public servant, like yourself. In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is exactly why you should not be a member. if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not translate to the statement you freely made. Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective your office is in fact. On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > Karen, > In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state > conventions. > So there is total transparency within the consumer groups. > The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes. > Some can go to either national convention on the state. > Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" > <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; > <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > wrong. > Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the > Nfb > used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment > of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom > scientific. > That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy > illustrates my point perfectly. > There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare > say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would > put a stop to the practice. > allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on > people's lives. > > > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee >> should not preclude personal rights. >> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined >> with >> dues. >> Glenn >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" >> <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; >> <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >> >> >> speaking personally? >> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict >> of interest personified. >> >> Karen >> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> >>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC >>> thing. >>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN >>> and >>> cancelled my PAC plan. >>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't >>> need any from me. >>> Glenn >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; >>> <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>> >>> >>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified >>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice >>> has >>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in >>> commerce. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive >>>> video, >>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that >>>> time. >>>> 73 >>>> Butch >>>> WA0VJR >>>> Node 3148 >>>> Wallace, ks. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote: >>>> >>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* >>>>> improve >>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think >>>>> the >>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly >>>>> mistaken. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state >>>>>> where >>>>>> the >>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. >>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its >>>>>> problems, >>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that >>>>>> society >>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes >>>>>> in >>>>>> skills and high expectations. >>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect >>>>>> of >>>>>> choice. >>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but >>>>>> this >>>>>> is >>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the >>>>>> fact >>>>>> that >>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any >>>>>> other >>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues. >>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices. >>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational >>>>>> course >>>>>> in >>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of >>>>>> choice >>>>>> in >>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the >>>>>> choices >>>>>> will >>>>>> reach the same end result. >>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I >>>>>> want >>>>>> to >>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, >>>>>> no >>>>>> questions asked. >>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it. >>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use >>>>>> the >>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have. >>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know >>>>>> Butch >>>>>> well >>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Glenn >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>> "Milan >>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people >>>>>> and >>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to >>>>>> get >>>>>> them to buy window-eyes. >>>>>> 73 >>>>>> Butch >>>>>> WA0VJR >>>>>> Node 3148 >>>>>> Wallace, ks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works >>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal >>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an >>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Karen, >>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the >>>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but >>>>>>>> don't know >>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> learn one of the two. >>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> employer >>>>>>>> will allow. >>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more >>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>> scripters >>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish. >>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> chosen, >>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the >>>>>>>> counselor >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for >>>>>>>> non-vocational >>>>>>>> purchases, >>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's >>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> interest >>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back >>>>>>>> like VR >>>>>>>> expenditures do. >>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets >>>>>>>> reminded, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> clients >>>>>>>> is quite poor. >>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. >>>>>>>> Making, >>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative >>>>>>>> request. >>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom >>>>>>>> scientific, we >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in >>>>>>>> Linux, >>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will >>>>>>>> give you >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the >>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the >>>>>>>>> client. >>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> advocate >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a >>>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>>> job. >>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> we did >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> work related situations. >>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would >>>>>>>>> indeed >>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product. >>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the >>>>>>>>> blinux >>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed >>>>>>>>> to say >>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. >>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> market >>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community. >>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to >>>>>>>>> support the >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> for choices? >>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor >>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>> speech >>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. >>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove >>>>>>>>> there is >>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't >>>>>>>>>> know why >>>>>>>>>> FS >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same. >>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real >>>>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>>>> changer, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start >>>>>>>>>> seeing >>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any >>>>>>>>>> longer, being >>>>>>>>>> bought >>>>>>>>>> by another company. >>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like >>>>>>>>>> clay. You >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and >>>>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>> for creativity. >>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>>>>>>> characteristics, >>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid >>>>>>>>>> foundation as >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few >>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house >>>>>>>>>> adaptive >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in >>>>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> least, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for >>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>> or the >>>>>>>>>> former >>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory >>>>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For >>>>>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>>>>> JFL >>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it >>>>>>>>>>> would bring >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux. >>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more >>>>>>>>>>> robust >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> Orca. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual >>>>>>>>>>> qualifications, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is >>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous, >>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the >>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is >>>>>>>>>>> factual. >>>>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive >>>>>>>>>>> feedback and >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible >>>>>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody >>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>> informed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not >>>>>>>>>>> experiencedâ?�, >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more >>>>>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>>>> desktop >>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a >>>>>>>>>>> common >>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and >>>>>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, >>>>>>>>>>> etc.? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single >>>>>>>>>>> developer >>>>>>>>>>> hired >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the >>>>>>>>>>> state of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix >>>>>>>>>>> all the >>>>>>>>>>> kinds >>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas >>>>>>>>>>> works at >>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as >>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones >>>>>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees >>>>>>>>>>> fit, >>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Milan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
