Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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Do what?
where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone they must use a certain tool.
give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although perhaps.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

Please do.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>;
<speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


Glen,
you are missing the point.
A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
watchdog for your organization's activities.
Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
funding.
That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
exactly why you should not be a member.
if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how above
influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
translate  to the statement you freely made.
Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
your  office is in fact.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

Karen,
In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
conventions.
So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
Some can go to either national convention on the state.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim"
<jheim@xxxxxxxx>;
<speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


wrong.
Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the
Nfb
used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
scientific.
That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
illustrates my point perfectly.
There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
put  a stop  to the practice.
allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
people's lives.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
should not preclude personal rights.
Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
with
dues.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim"
<jheim@xxxxxxxx>;
<speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


speaking personally?
No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
of interest personified.

Karen


On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
thing.
Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
and
cancelled my PAC plan.
I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
need any from me.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>;
<speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
has
been common so those with limited education could still engage in
commerce.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:

Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
video,
even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
time.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:

 Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
improve
 Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
the
 NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
 mistaken.



 On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
  This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
where
  the
  agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
  Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
  problems,
  but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
  society
  has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
in
  skills and high expectations.
  And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
of
  choice.
  Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
this
  is
  organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
fact
  that
  it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
other
  organization in interpersonal staff issues.
  And choice does not mean training center choices.
  Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
  course
  in
  college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
  choice
  in
  this regard is different than computer software, where all the
choices
  will
  reach the same end result.
  In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
want
  to
  use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
no
  questions asked.
  They would not have to fight to get it.
  I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
the
  software that the counselor wants them to have.
  When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
Butch
  well
  enough to know he wouldn't make that up.

  Glenn
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
  "Milan
  Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


  You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
and
  took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
get
  them to buy window-eyes.
  73
  Butch
  WA0VJR
  Node 3148
  Wallace, ks.


  On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

  And where do these employers learn about jaws?
  In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
  exactly.
  after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
  Jaws
  users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
  expensive
  program instead of a largely free one.



  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

    Karen,
    Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
    In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
    counselors
    will
    use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
    If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
    don't know
    NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
will
    need
  to
    learn one of the two.
    So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
the
  employer
    will allow.
    Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
Jaws
  scripters
    available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
    So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
years
    in the
    business I can say is rubbish.
    Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
may
    be
    chosen,
    the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
counselor
    feels
  is
    best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
    When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
non-vocational
    purchases,
    where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
    best
    interest
    to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
    like VR
    expenditures do.
    Glenn

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
    <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


    The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
  reminded,
  the
    rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
their
  clients
    is quite poor.
    With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
    Making,
    speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
really
    reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
    request.
    Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
    scientific, we
  are
    creating an employment program where our clients will train in
    Linux,
    needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
    give you
    an
    exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
tool.
    Fs would likely say where do we sign?



    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

    True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
at
    work,
    and
    probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
    client.
    If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
would
  advocate
    that
    the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
    specific
  job.
    In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
than
    we did
    for
    work related situations.
    So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
    indeed
    purchase a JFL product.
    Glenn
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
    <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


    there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
    blinux
    list
    about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
    to say
    command line,  the comments were quite informative.
    Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
    they
    market
    to the American rehab community.
    how much market research has  the rehab community done to
    support the
    need
    for choices?
    How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
    one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
    quality
  speech
    is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
    everyone
    brings their needs to the table there.

    if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
    there is
    money for  them there, from their main source of income.



    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

    Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
  know why
  FS
    would
    not be able to do the same.
    If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
    game
    changer,
    and
    I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
    seeing
    accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
    Glenn
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
    <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


    Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
    longer, being
    bought
    by another company.
    Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
their
    tools
    for
    Linux.
    That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
    clay. You
  can
    mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
    personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
changes
    and
    options
    for creativity.
    however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
    characteristics,
    hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
    To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
    foundation as
  it
    were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
    Apple
    efforts
    at
    inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
    adaptive
    tools
    for various  populations that were built into the system.
    Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
theory
    at
    least,
    the
    consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
freedom
    or the
    former
    gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
    work.
    Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
    Just my thoughts,



    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

    I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
    Linux.
    JFL
    I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
    would bring
    many
    more
    users into Linux.
    FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
robust
    than
    Orca.

    Glenn
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
    To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


    "KL" == Karen Lewellen
<klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  writes:
  KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
  qualifications,
  and
KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
if
KL>    he
KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
KL>    dangerous,
KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
KL>    accessibility
KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
factual.
KL>    he
  has
  KL>  to be expert, it is his job.

    Hi Karen,

    I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
  qualifications.
    I
    also know first hand that he is open to constructive
    feedback and
  I
    believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
    technical
    inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
    opportunity
  to
    find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
    better
    informed.

    As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
  experiencedâ?�,
  what
    reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
    standard
    desktop
    with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
    common
  blind
    user
    who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
    process
    text
    documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
    etc.?

    And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
  developer
  hired
    to
    improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
    state of
  the
    matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
    all the
    kinds
    of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
    works at
    his
    job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
    urgent ones
    and I
    appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
to
    work
  on
    other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
fit,
  as I
  do.

    Regards,
    Milan





















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