I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee should not preclude personal rights. Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined with dues. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) speaking personally? No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict of interest personified. Karen On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC > thing. > Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN > and > cancelled my PAC plan. > I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't > need any from me. > Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; > <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified > by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice > has > been common so those with limited education could still engage in > commerce. > > > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote: > >> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive >> video, >> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that >> time. >> 73 >> Butch >> WA0VJR >> Node 3148 >> Wallace, ks. >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote: >> >>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* >>> improve >>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think >>> the >>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly >>> mistaken. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where >>>> the >>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. >>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its >>>> problems, >>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that >>>> society >>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes >>>> in >>>> skills and high expectations. >>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of >>>> choice. >>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this >>>> is >>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the >>>> fact >>>> that >>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any >>>> other >>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues. >>>> And choice does not mean training center choices. >>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational >>>> course >>>> in >>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of >>>> choice >>>> in >>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the >>>> choices >>>> will >>>> reach the same end result. >>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I >>>> want >>>> to >>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, >>>> no >>>> questions asked. >>>> They would not have to fight to get it. >>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use >>>> the >>>> software that the counselor wants them to have. >>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch >>>> well >>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>> "Milan >>>> Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>> >>>> >>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people >>>> and >>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to >>>> get >>>> them to buy window-eyes. >>>> 73 >>>> Butch >>>> WA0VJR >>>> Node 3148 >>>> Wallace, ks. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>> >>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works >>>>> exactly. >>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal >>>>> Jaws >>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an >>>>> expensive >>>>> program instead of a largely free one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Karen, >>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the >>>>>> counselors >>>>>> will >>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but >>>>>> don't know >>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients >>>>>> will >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> learn one of the two. >>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what >>>>>> the >>>>>> employer >>>>>> will allow. >>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more >>>>>> Jaws >>>>>> scripters >>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 >>>>>> years >>>>>> in the >>>>>> business I can say is rubbish. >>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either >>>>>> may >>>>>> be >>>>>> chosen, >>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the >>>>>> counselor >>>>>> feels >>>>>> is >>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for >>>>>> non-vocational >>>>>> purchases, >>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's >>>>>> best >>>>>> interest >>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back >>>>>> like VR >>>>>> expenditures do. >>>>>> Glenn >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets >>>>>> reminded, >>>>>> the >>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for >>>>>> their >>>>>> clients >>>>>> is quite poor. >>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. >>>>>> Making, >>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not >>>>>> really >>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative >>>>>> request. >>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom >>>>>> scientific, we >>>>>> are >>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in >>>>>> Linux, >>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will >>>>>> give you >>>>>> an >>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the >>>>>> tool. >>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> work, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the >>>>>>> client. >>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> advocate >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a >>>>>>> specific >>>>>>> job. >>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> we did >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> work related situations. >>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would >>>>>>> indeed >>>>>>> purchase a JFL product. >>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the >>>>>>> blinux >>>>>>> list >>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed >>>>>>> to say >>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. >>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> market >>>>>>> to the American rehab community. >>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to >>>>>>> support the >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> for choices? >>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor >>>>>>> quality >>>>>>> speech >>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. >>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove >>>>>>> there is >>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't >>>>>>>> know why >>>>>>>> FS >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not be able to do the same. >>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real >>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>> changer, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start >>>>>>>> seeing >>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>> <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any >>>>>>>> longer, being >>>>>>>> bought >>>>>>>> by another company. >>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like >>>>>>>> clay. You >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and >>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>> for creativity. >>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>>>>> characteristics, >>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid >>>>>>>> foundation as >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few >>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house >>>>>>>> adaptive >>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in >>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for >>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>> or the >>>>>>>> former >>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For >>>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>>> JFL >>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it >>>>>>>>> would bring >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> users into Linux. >>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more >>>>>>>>> robust >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> Orca. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual >>>>>>>>> qualifications, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is >>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous, >>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the >>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility >>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is >>>>>>>>> factual. >>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Karen, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive >>>>>>>>> feedback and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible >>>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good >>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody >>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>> informed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not >>>>>>>>> experiencedâ?�, >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more >>>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>> desktop >>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a >>>>>>>>> common >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and >>>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, >>>>>>>>> etc.? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single >>>>>>>>> developer >>>>>>>>> hired >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the >>>>>>>>> state of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix >>>>>>>>> all the >>>>>>>>> kinds >>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas >>>>>>>>> works at >>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as >>>>>>>>> urgent ones >>>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees >>>>>>>>> fit, >>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Milan >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >
