Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve
Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
mistaken.
On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
> the
> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
> problems,
> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
> society
> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> skills and high expectations.
> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> choice.
> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
> is
> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
> that
> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
> course
> in
> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
> choice
> in
> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> will
> reach the same end result.
> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
> to
> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> questions asked.
> They would not have to fight to get it.
> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
> well
> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> "Milan
> Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> them to buy window-eyes.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
> > And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> > In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> > exactly.
> > after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
> > Jaws
> > users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
> > expensive
> > program instead of a largely free one.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >
> > > Karen,
> > > Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> > > In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
> > > counselors
> > > will
> > > use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> > > If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
> > > don't know
> > > NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
> > > need
> > > to
> > > learn one of the two.
> > > So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> > > employer
> > > will allow.
> > > Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> > > scripters
> > > available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> > > So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years
> > > in the
> > > business I can say is rubbish.
> > > Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
> > > be
> > > chosen,
> > > the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
> > > feels
> > > is
> > > best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> > > When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> > > purchases,
> > > where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
> > > best
> > > interest
> > > to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
> > > like VR
> > > expenditures do.
> > > Glenn
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
> > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
> > > reminded,
> > > the
> > > rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
> > > clients
> > > is quite poor.
> > > With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
> > > Making,
> > > speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> > > reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
> > > request.
> > > Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
> > > scientific, we
> > > are
> > > creating an employment program where our clients will train in
> > > Linux,
> > > needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
> > > give you
> > > an
> > > exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> > > Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > >
> > > > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
> > > > work,
> > > > and
> > > > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
> > > > client.
> > > > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> > > > advocate
> > > > that
> > > > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
> > > > specific
> > > > job.
> > > > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
> > > > we did
> > > > for
> > > > work related situations.
> > > > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
> > > > indeed
> > > > purchase a JFL product.
> > > > Glenn
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
> > > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
> > > > blinux
> > > > list
> > > > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
> > > > to say
> > > > command line, the comments were quite informative.
> > > > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
> > > > they
> > > > market
> > > > to the American rehab community.
> > > > how much market research has the rehab community done to
> > > > support the
> > > > need
> > > > for choices?
> > > > How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> > > > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
> > > > quality
> > > > speech
> > > > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> > > > everyone
> > > > brings their needs to the table there.
> > > >
> > > > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
> > > > there is
> > > > money for them there, from their main source of income.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
> > > > > know why
> > > > > FS
> > > > > would
> > > > > not be able to do the same.
> > > > > If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
> > > > > game
> > > > > changer,
> > > > > and
> > > > > I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
> > > > > seeing
> > > > > accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> > > > > Glenn
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > > > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
> > > > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
> > > > > longer, being
> > > > > bought
> > > > > by another company.
> > > > > Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
> > > > > tools
> > > > > for
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
> > > > > clay. You
> > > > > can
> > > > > mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> > > > > personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
> > > > > and
> > > > > options
> > > > > for creativity.
> > > > > however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> > > > > characteristics,
> > > > > hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> > > > > To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
> > > > > foundation as
> > > > > it
> > > > > were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
> > > > > Apple
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > at
> > > > > inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
> > > > > adaptive
> > > > > tools
> > > > > for various populations that were built into the system.
> > > > > Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory
> > > > > at
> > > > > least,
> > > > > the
> > > > > consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom
> > > > > or the
> > > > > former
> > > > > gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
> > > > > work.
> > > > > Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> > > > > Just my thoughts,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
> > > > > > Linux.
> > > > > > JFL
> > > > > > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
> > > > > > would bring
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > users into Linux.
> > > > > > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > Orca.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Glenn
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > > writes:
> > > > > > KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
> > > > > > qualifications,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if
> > > > > > KL> he
> > > > > > KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
> > > > > > KL> dangerous,
> > > > > > KL> because he is educating those outside of the
> > > > > > KL> accessibility
> > > > > > KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
> > > > > > KL> he
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Karen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> > > > > > qualifications.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > also know first hand that he is open to constructive
> > > > > > feedback and
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
> > > > > > technical
> > > > > > inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
> > > > > > opportunity
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > informed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
> > > > > > experiencedâ?,
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
> > > > > > standard
> > > > > > desktop
> > > > > > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
> > > > > > common
> > > > > > blind
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
> > > > > > process
> > > > > > text
> > > > > > documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
> > > > > > etc.?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
> > > > > > developer
> > > > > > hired
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > improve accessibility. This tells something about the
> > > > > > state of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
> > > > > > all the
> > > > > > kinds
> > > > > > of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
> > > > > > works at
> > > > > > his
> > > > > > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
> > > > > > urgent ones
> > > > > > and I
> > > > > > appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit,
> > > > > > as I
> > > > > > do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Milan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
