Several years ago, I talked with Dave Bolnick who at that time was Microsoft Accessibility Team lead and he told me the same thing about the N.F.B. Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> . On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote: > It isn't just a rumor. I was heavily involved with gw micro at that time, and > nfb's reasoning was it would stop development of screen readers. Gw was > working with microsoft at that time and I got it directly from Doug. > 73 > Butch > WA0VJR > Node 3148 > Wallace, ks. > > > On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > > > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times. > > Glenn > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx> > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen" > > <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > > > > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* > > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you > > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very > > sadly mistaken. > > > > > > > > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the > >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. > >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, > >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society > >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in > >> skills and high expectations. > >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of > >> choice. > >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is > >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact > >> that > >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other > >> organization in interpersonal staff issues. > >> And choice does not mean training center choices. > >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course > >> in > >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice > >> in > >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices > >> will > >> reach the same end result. > >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to > >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no > >> questions asked. > >> They would not have to fight to get it. > >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the > >> software that the counselor wants them to have. > >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well > >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. > >> > >> Glenn > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan > >> Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM > >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >> > >> > >> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and > >> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get > >> them to buy window-eyes. > >> 73 > >> Butch > >> WA0VJR > >> Node 3148 > >> Wallace, ks. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: > >> > >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? > >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works > >>> exactly. > >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws > >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive > >>> program instead of a largely free one. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>> > >>>> Karen, > >>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. > >>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors > >>>> will > >>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. > >>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't > >>>> know > >>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need > >>>> to > >>>> learn one of the two. > >>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the > >>>> employer > >>>> will allow. > >>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws > >>>> scripters > >>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. > >>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in > >>>> the > >>>> business I can say is rubbish. > >>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be > >>>> chosen, > >>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels > >>>> is > >>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. > >>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational > >>>> purchases, > >>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best > >>>> interest > >>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR > >>>> expenditures do. > >>>> Glenn > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > >>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, > >>>> the > >>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their > >>>> clients > >>>> is quite poor. > >>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, > >>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really > >>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. > >>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we > >>>> are > >>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, > >>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give > >>>> you > >>>> an > >>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. > >>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, > >>>>> and > >>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. > >>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would > >>>>> advocate > >>>>> that > >>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific > >>>>> job. > >>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did > >>>>> for > >>>>> work related situations. > >>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed > >>>>> purchase a JFL product. > >>>>> Glenn > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > >>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux > >>>>> list > >>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say > >>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. > >>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they > >>>>> market > >>>>> to the American rehab community. > >>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the > >>>>> need > >>>>> for choices? > >>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? > >>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality > >>>>> speech > >>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. > >>>>> everyone > >>>>> brings their needs to the table there. > >>>>> > >>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there > >>>>> is > >>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why > >>>>>> FS > >>>>>> would > >>>>>> not be able to do the same. > >>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game > >>>>>> changer, > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing > >>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. > >>>>>> Glenn > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > >>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being > >>>>>> bought > >>>>>> by another company. > >>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> Linux. > >>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You > >>>>>> can > >>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various > >>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and > >>>>>> options > >>>>>> for creativity. > >>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical > >>>>>> characteristics, > >>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. > >>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple > >>>>>> efforts > >>>>>> at > >>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive > >>>>>> tools > >>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. > >>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at > >>>>>> least, > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the > >>>>>> former > >>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. > >>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. > >>>>>> Just my thoughts, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. > >>>>>>> JFL > >>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring > >>>>>>> many > >>>>>>> more > >>>>>>> users into Linux. > >>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than > >>>>>>> Orca. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Glenn > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>>> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>>>>>>>>> writes: > >>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he > >>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous, > >>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility > >>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he > >>>>>>> has > >>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Karen, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and > >>>>>>> qualifications. > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical > >>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better > >>>>>>> informed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???, > >>>>>>> what > >>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard > >>>>>>> desktop > >>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common > >>>>>>> blind > >>>>>>> user > >>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process > >>>>>>> text > >>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer > >>>>>>> hired > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the > >>>>>>> kinds > >>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at > >>>>>>> his > >>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones > >>>>>>> and I > >>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work > >>>>>>> on > >>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I > >>>>>>> do. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Milan > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > > > > >
