That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly mistaken. On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the > agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. > Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, > but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society > has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in > skills and high expectations. > And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of > choice. > Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is > organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact > that > it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other > organization in interpersonal staff issues. > And choice does not mean training center choices. > Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course > in > college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice > in > this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices > will > reach the same end result. > In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to > use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no > questions asked. > They would not have to fight to get it. > I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the > software that the counselor wants them to have. > When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well > enough to know he wouldn't make that up. > > Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan > Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and > took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get > them to buy window-eyes. > 73 > Butch > WA0VJR > Node 3148 > Wallace, ks. > > > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: > >> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works >> exactly. >> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws >> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive >> program instead of a largely free one. >> >> >> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> >>> Karen, >>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors >>> will >>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't >>> know >>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need >>> to >>> learn one of the two. >>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the >>> employer >>> will allow. >>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws >>> scripters >>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in >>> the >>> business I can say is rubbish. >>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be >>> chosen, >>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels >>> is >>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational >>> purchases, >>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best >>> interest >>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR >>> expenditures do. >>> Glenn >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>> >>> >>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, >>> the >>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their >>> clients >>> is quite poor. >>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, >>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really >>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. >>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we >>> are >>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, >>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give >>> you >>> an >>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. >>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>> >>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, >>>> and >>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. >>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would >>>> advocate >>>> that >>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific >>>> job. >>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did >>>> for >>>> work related situations. >>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed >>>> purchase a JFL product. >>>> Glenn >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>> >>>> >>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux >>>> list >>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say >>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. >>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they >>>> market >>>> to the American rehab community. >>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the >>>> need >>>> for choices? >>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality >>>> speech >>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. >>>> everyone >>>> brings their needs to the table there. >>>> >>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there >>>> is >>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why >>>>> FS >>>>> would >>>>> not be able to do the same. >>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game >>>>> changer, >>>>> and >>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing >>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>> Glenn >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being >>>>> bought >>>>> by another company. >>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools >>>>> for >>>>> Linux. >>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You >>>>> can >>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and >>>>> options >>>>> for creativity. >>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>> characteristics, >>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as >>>>> it >>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple >>>>> efforts >>>>> at >>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive >>>>> tools >>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at >>>>> least, >>>>> the >>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the >>>>> former >>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. >>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. >>>>>> JFL >>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring >>>>>> many >>>>>> more >>>>>> users into Linux. >>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than >>>>>> Orca. >>>>>> >>>>>> Glenn >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, >>>>>> and >>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he >>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous, >>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility >>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he >>>>>> has >>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Karen, >>>>>> >>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>> I >>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical >>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity >>>>>> to >>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better >>>>>> informed. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?, >>>>>> what >>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard >>>>>> desktop >>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common >>>>>> blind >>>>>> user >>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process >>>>>> text >>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? >>>>>> >>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer >>>>>> hired >>>>>> to >>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of >>>>>> the >>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the >>>>>> kinds >>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at >>>>>> his >>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones >>>>>> and I >>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work >>>>>> on >>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I >>>>>> do. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Milan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >
