In this conversation between Pete and Dave, there's one point that's come up which has come up often enough that I want to call it out separately for comment: >> the only purpose it seems to serve is to bully others into not >> participating in the conversation. > > You think I could bully Patrik? Good luck with that, too. Let's take this out of the context of the discussion at hand, and be more general -- because, as I said, I'm reacting not to the statement as it stands, but to how often I've seen it made (twice within the last few weeks alone). The form is this: Point: You behaved badly toward [person X]. Counterpoint: Well, [person X] has been around, he can handle it. Often, there's a further response that agrees that, indeed, [person X] can take it, so all is OK. No. All is not OK. What this argument leaves out is consideration of everyone *else* who's reading this exchange and putting themselves in the shoes of [person X]. Many of them are looking at what to expect from engaging in IETF discussions, many of them are not old-timers with thick skins and an understanding of IETF rhetoric, and many of them will be put off of participating because they see how we treat those who do participate. Again, remember: I'm not talking about this particular discussion, so let's not fixate on whether or not being abrupt, sarcastic, abusive, offensive, profane, or whatever... is appropriate for this conversation. The general point is that the new people whom we want to draw in as productive participants will be watching how we treat each other and deciding whether they want to wade into that pool. Barry