At 12:15 PM 4/13/2013, John C Klensin wrote: >--On Friday, April 12, 2013 23:37 -0400 Andrew Sullivan ><ajs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> The only lesson I really learned from that experience is that >> it is incredibly hard for women[1] to be treated as adult >> colleagues in an environment that acts overwhelmingly as a >> white male club. > >JJ Thompson, Grace Anscomb, etc., notwithstanding. Similarly, >Grace Hopper, Jean Sammet, Jane Thompson, Martha Steenstrup, >Deborah Estrin, Sally Floyd, etc. And to confuse this even more, what was most important about Martha, Debbie and Sally with respect to the health of the IETF were their presenence in the academic and research space, not so much their gender except as possibly role models for new female attendees. Maybe what we do is ask some of the large network companies to fund a few research fellowships on topics that might be of interest to the IETF in the 3-5 year time frame for post-doc types? >That doesn't change your point other than to identify a >different fallacy in the "girl-philosophy" hypothesis and its >computer science / networking analogies. If you haven't heard >of some of the above, it demonstrations a slightly different >point. It may also suggest that there is an area in which the >IETF is absolutely non-discriminatory: there is no evidence >that the IETF has been any more effective in driving, e.g., >Martha or Deborah out than with Crowcroft, Elz, Clark, Chapin, >... > > :-( > john