Hi Brian,
At 11:48 AM +0100 1/25/05, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Exactly. And we need to be sure that the "appeals" text allows for review of procedures, including the kind of "case study" you suggest, without allowing the appeal procedure to be used for commercial food-fights. It's tricky to get that exactly right.
Are you sure that we have consensus on this? It seems to me that some people would like the IAB/IESG to be able to force the re-consideration of an IAOC decision, but not for other IETF participants to have any way to effectively question the IAOC. At least, that is how most of the recent suggestions read to me. People don't even seem to have picked up on my concern that the current text doesn't say who to contact if you do want a decision reviewed, making the process difficult and intimidating for anyone who isn't embroiled in IETF politics.
Maybe it would help (in getting this issue closed) if we could figure out what we want in general terms and then try to draft the text? Mixing basic conceptual arguments with text tuning within multiple (ever changing) camps doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.
So, I'll take a shot at a few things attributes that I think would be good in a review process:
(1) I agree with you that we do not want a review process (whether invoked by an individual or by the IAB and IESG) that can overturn a contract award or hiring decision after that decision is made. The current proposed text (I think that the latest was from Leslie) makes the community impotent, without properly restricting the review requests from the IAB/IESG, IMO.
[N.B. I do hope that the IAOC will run an open RFP process for most (or all?) contracts, and that the process will include a public comment stage after the IAOC chooses a potential winner, so that there will be an opportunity for the community to raise concerns (if any) before it is too late. Given recent posts, I don't think that the IASA-TT/IAOC is likely to take us in this direction within the next year, but I do hope that we get there eventually.]
(2) I think that the review process should be well-enough specified that a person who is not a (past or present) member of the I* could use it. This means that it needs to say where you send a review request, how you unambiguously identify a formal review request and what a review request should contain. This should be at least at the level of detail of the RFC 2026 appeals process (or even a bit more detailed, as folks seem to find that process confusing enough that they don't often get it right).
(3) I think that review requests should be limited to situations where the IAOC violates written procedures (their own or the IASA BCP) and/or makes a decision that is against the best interests of the IETF. The request for review should be specific about what procedure was violated and/or how a specific decision runs against the IETF's interests.
(4) Personally, I think that any member of the community (and yes, I understand that means the general public) should be able to make a formal review request and expect to get a response from the IAOC within a reasonable time period (~90 days). I do not think the response needs to be a lengthy hearing, or a complex legal document. But, I think that we should have a review process, open to everyone, where a response is mandated. The response could be: "We looked into this decision, and we didn't find anything irregular about the decision or about how it was reached".
(5) I think that there should be at least one level of escalation possible if the person requesting a review does not receive a satisfactory response from the IAOC (I had suggested that this would go to the IESG). I don't think that the person should have to persuade the IAB or IESG to act on his/her behalf (which is another way in which the current process is really only open to political insiders), I think that the IESG (or whoever we use as the next level lf escalation) should be required to consider the IAOC's response and respond to the escalated review within a reasonable timeframe.
(6) I do not think that we want the IAB or IESG (or anyone else) to be able to overturn a decision of the IAOC, only to advise the IAOC that they believe that an incorrect decision was made.
Do folks agree with these thoughts? Are there other basic ideas that should be included?
Margaret
At 11:48 AM +0100 1/25/05, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Sam Hartman wrote:"Brian" == Brian E Carpenter <brc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Brian> Reviewing procedures is fine. Reviewing specific awards Brian> isn't, IMHO, which is all I intended my words to exclude. Attempting to undo a specific award once things are signed (or delaying signing) is generally unacceptable. Reviewing a specific award to come to conclusions like "we failed to follow our procedures," is definitely problematic but IMHO sometimes necessary. Such reviews need to be handled with great care: some of the data used to make the decision may not be available to the reviewing body and much of the data must not become public. Also, if you conclude that you did follow the wrong procedures in a specific incident but are stuck with the contract because it is already signed, that creates all sorts of bad feelings and potential liability.
Exactly. And we need to be sure that the "appeals" text allows for review of procedures, including the kind of "case study" you suggest, without allowing the appeal procedure to be used for commercial food-fights. It's tricky to get that exactly right.
Brian
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