Re: Notification to list from IETF Moderators team

[Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 10/14/22 11:42, Livingood, Jason wrote:

> "Working respectfully with other participants" does not just prohibit personal attacks, it also means respecting their effort, their contribution and their motives.  As many others have already stated, it is perfectly possible to disagree with something while maintaining that respect.

 

(NO HATS - personal views)

It is often said " "A culture is defined by the worst behavior tolerated." https://twitter.com/adammgrant/status/1384477310875799554?lang=en

The IETF has been taking very clear steps to improve its culture

    I respectfully but emphatically disagree.  From my perspective, the
    IETF (or at least some of its leadership) has been taking very clear
    steps to make its culture more toxic.  I haven't seen any
    sign that this trend is being reversed.

and this necessarily means making how we interact more respectful, in part because it is the right thing to do but also because that behavior was actively driving away new and existing participants.

    I absolutely agree that we need to interact respectfully, but
    EVERYBODY needs to do that.  And part of engaging respectfully
    requires doing so even in response to input that seems insulting.   
    It requires giving one's colleagues some benefit of the doubt,
    rather than (say) increasing the heat of the discussion, or making
    vicious accusations against individuals based on presumed ability to
    read their minds.

 

It is also worth considering "Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement
I offer the observation that what this thread discusses is an example of digressing from the top of the pyramid to the very bottom of the pyramid.

    I don't see that pattern, but it may be that I assign significance
    to different messages, or different parts of messages, than you do.

Just to cite one example, when someone says something is "stupid" without saying more, I generally just rewrite it in my mind to "___________ does not like that thing, but provided no support for their opinion".   I don't get offended, but neither do I lose any sleep over it, and it doesn't carry much weight with me one way or another.   To me it seems like the best response is mostly to ignore it.

Keith