On 8/24/22 10:38, Ofer Inbar wrote:
Admittedly I'm comparing two points on the spectrum between tolerance and control - one which was represented by IETF, say, 25 years ago, and the other which is the present day, or maybe 3-5 years ago. IETF was MUCH more tolerant 25 years ago because even if people were sometimes more passionate in the way they expressed their views, they were also more welcoming and accepting of diverse inputs. Recent draconian efforts to suppress "uncivil", "unprofessional", "impolite", etc. inputs (and to suppress certain individuals believed to be problematic) actually made IETF more toxic. I realize that sounds paradoxical to some, but I'm quite confident that it's true.On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 07:53:02AM -0400, Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:A step that increases intolerance (no matter how well intended) does not make IETF more able to incorporate diverse input to build a consensus. Instead, what it does is consolidate control in the hands of a few people.I am quite confident that is not true.
However I will admit that lots of people are uncomfortable in environments that aren't like what they're accustomed to. For example, if you're accustomed to an environment in which it's not socially acceptable to question the boss's judgment, you'll probably be uncomfortable in an environment in which it is acceptable, or encouraged. Many people consciously or subconsciously try to determine who the "alphas" in a community are, and where they stand in relation to the dominance hierarchy. Those people will be very disoriented if there is no dominance hierarchy. But a dominance hierarchy is counterproductive to a consensus-making organization, and doesn't belong in IETF. So some people will inevitably be uncomfortable unless/until they adapt.
I'm absolutely sure that's true at a certain extreme, but I don't think IETF has been anywhere nearly that territory in its history. In some ways IETF is much less diverse today than ever. For example, I see very few participants these days from academia.Like many other online communities and forums, there is a balance between tolerance for people saying anything at all, and controlling that such that it does not drive other people away. Tolerating too much definitely has been shown to lead to *less* diversity in many such forums, and I highly doubt the IETF list is different.
When people feel insulted, threatened, or even just plain unpleasant due to their participation, it will motivate them to participate less, so such tolerance has its flip side. It is possible to go too far in either direction, and where the best balance lies is both a matter of judgement and not entirely clear or objective, so I'm not saying this is a simple straightforward matter. What I am saying is that the absolute position you stated is misleading and it would be counterproductive to be guided by it.
My "absolutist position" is just a shorthand, because I have not
always been precise about how much control is too much or too
little. (indeed, I have a hard time understanding how to define
these precisely). Really I'm arguing for more tolerance in
comparison to the (to me, very intolerant) status quo.
Where the line between tolerance and control is drawn is
necessarily a compromise, and I can certainly see how either
extreme is counterproductive. But I think IETF has gone far too
far in recent years in trying to suppress people who aren't of a
corporate mentality, and that this has done tremendous harm to
IETF and been a huge disservice to the Internet user community.
As far as I can tell, IETF has only barely begun to correct this
unfortunate trend.
Even though I have a hard time precisely nailing down exactly how
much or little control I think is optimal, I do keep trying to
focus on some specific things: One is that vague rules inevitably
become tools for abuse even when that isn't intended. Another is
that consensus building inherently requires tolerance of different
values, which is uncomfortable for many people for the same
reason that learning is often uncomfortable. So the mere fact
that people are uncomfortable doesn't mean someone is being
wronged or that IETF is doing things wrong; it may even mean that
IETF is doing things right. Being uncomfortable goes with the
territory of consensus building. And sure, just like any other
kind of hard work, there will be people who want to avoid doing
it. But that's not an argument for abandoning the work in favor
of something that's easier.
Keith
