Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive attitude to not stop this natural process of mine. You ended your reply with "you were a dick", I said that I have 3 more. It's 4 or us so far, then. On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:29 PM C R <cajhne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else > that's the problem. > > If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror. > lol > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me >> are dicks, too. >> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <cajhne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> >>>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and >>>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I >>>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are >>>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about). >>>> >>> >>> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not >>> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually >>> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset... >>> like way upset. :) >>> >>> >>>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad. >>>> >>> >>> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it >>> hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back >>> later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But >>> whatever. >>> >>> >>>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks >>>> employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff. >>>> >>> >>> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day >>> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to >>> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff >>> users asked for was done). >>> >>> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially >>> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained >>> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you >>> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of >>> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an >>> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism, >>> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding >>> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to >>> control your own temper in these threads. >>> >>> >>> >>>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. >>>> >>> >>> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying >>> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move. >>> >>> >>>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he >>>> implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of >>>> GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and >>>> not worth explaining things. >>>> >>> >>> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a >>> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself. >>> >>> >>>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this >>>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about >>>> it". >>>> >>> >>> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and >>> not on this mailing list. >>> >>> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it. >>>> >>> >>> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not >>> just GIMP culture, that's life in general. >>> >>> -C >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <cajhne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the >>>>> thread: >>>>> >>>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was >>>>> just justifying me complaining. >>>>> >>>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code >>>>> that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to >>>>> become a GIMP dev? >>>>> Jesus..." >>>>> >>>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all >>>>> sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect >>>>> everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them. >>>>> >>>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :) >>>>> >>>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint. >>>>> >>>>> Just an outsider's perspective. >>>>> -C >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via >>>>> gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't >>>>>> know if >>>>>> > people can read it. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in >>>>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who >>>>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you >>>>>> keep >>>>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you >>>>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP). >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately >>>>>> -- you >>>>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they >>>>>> call me >>>>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will >>>>>> help >>>>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, >>>>>> but >>>>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important >>>>>> that they >>>>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your >>>>>> behavior is >>>>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If >>>>>> it's not, >>>>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be >>>>>> as much >>>>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree >>>>>> with >>>>>> > you. >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went >>>>>> for, >>>>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html >>>>>> >>>>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid >>>>>> repetitive >>>>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____." >>>>>> >>>>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good day to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>>>>> > alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with >>>>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone >>>>>> who >>>>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to >>>>>> people. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with >>>>>> you. I >>>>>> >>> guess it's you against the world. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and >>>>>> --in >>>>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least >>>>>> reply--if they >>>>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure >>>>>> your behavior >>>>>> >>> is OK?). >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the >>>>>> mailing lists >>>>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people >>>>>> get >>>>>> >> emails sent to those list. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me >>>>>> don't as >>>>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only >>>>>> two other >>>>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can >>>>>> pinpoint >>>>>> >> the relevant threads. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Exhibit A: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg >>>>>> guy >>>>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just >>>>>> wanted to >>>>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact >>>>>> same >>>>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> This is this very thread: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to >>>>>> use in >>>>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to >>>>>> say that >>>>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's >>>>>> "mindset >>>>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing >>>>>> I said >>>>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying >>>>>> "Facts... >>>>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)". >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> ropes. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> And Exhibit B: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>>>> thread >>>>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>>>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on >>>>>> something. >>>>>> >> Even if you win, you lose... >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> This is this very thread: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend >>>>>> shocking 3 >>>>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, >>>>>> mansplaining, and >>>>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person >>>>>> characterized the >>>>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> very same thread -- >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ >>>>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes >>>>>> between >>>>>> >> versions. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of >>>>>> tagging a >>>>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for >>>>>> the next >>>>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart >>>>>> attack, >>>>>> >>>>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned < >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >> here." >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think >>>>>> our >>>>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven >>>>>> wrong. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Alex >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility >>>>>> for your >>>>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for >>>>>> yourself only, >>>>>> >>> but for other people as well. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>>>>> >>> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo, >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a >>>>>> have a >>>>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about >>>>>> something they >>>>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn >>>>>> before >>>>>> >>>> drawing conclusions. >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to >>>>>> releases >>>>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I >>>>>> should have >>>>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos >>>>>> verbal >>>>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives. >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that. >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx>: >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Hello. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> TLDR: >>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying >>>>>> that he's >>>>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and >>>>>> doing things >>>>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) >>>>>> role, which >>>>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> FULL: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): >>>>>> I've >>>>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest >>>>>> exchange is >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq >>>>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. >>>>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. >>>>>> What triggered >>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better >>>>>> than random >>>>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to >>>>>> upgrade hundreds >>>>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think >>>>>> he >>>>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should >>>>>> refactor >>>>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). >>>>>> Regardless, >>>>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release >>>>>> because, bla >>>>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically >>>>>> saying that I had >>>>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but >>>>>> neither is he >>>>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: >>>>>> just because >>>>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, >>>>>> which is >>>>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas >>>>>> with people >>>>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to >>>>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and >>>>>> to be honest >>>>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I >>>>>> didn't say >>>>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally >>>>>> different >>>>>> >>>>> beast. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I >>>>>> started >>>>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre >>>>>> attacked around >>>>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that >>>>>> alexlg guy >>>>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. >>>>>> Just wanted to >>>>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the >>>>>> exact same >>>>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Another message: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in >>>>>> another >>>>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough >>>>>> people had >>>>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on >>>>>> something. >>>>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff >>>>>> like >>>>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about >>>>>> it", or using >>>>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" >>>>>> being >>>>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow >>>>>> users, because >>>>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create >>>>>> awesome free >>>>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when >>>>>> I found out >>>>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in >>>>>> non-technical ways. >>>>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a >>>>>> developer but >>>>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while >>>>>> pretending to be a >>>>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned >>>>>> from >>>>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only >>>>>> he's >>>>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the >>>>>> project. It's easy >>>>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already >>>>>> passionate GIMP >>>>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to >>>>>> really talk to, >>>>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an >>>>>> awesome project >>>>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn >>>>>> a critic >>>>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, >>>>>> pretending >>>>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for >>>>>> the dev team, >>>>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled >>>>>> assholes. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop >>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me >>>>>> since I would >>>>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just >>>>>> maybe) you guys >>>>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with >>>>>> this >>>>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his >>>>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for >>>>>> someone who >>>>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -- >>>>>> >>> Niccolo. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> -- >>>>>> > Niccolo. >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list >>>>>> List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>> List membership: >>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list >>>>>> List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Niccolo. >>>> >>> -- >> Niccolo. >> > -- Niccolo. _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
