Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are dicks, too. On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <cajhne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and >> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I >> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are >> better (which I had an extremely open mind about). >> > > You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not > wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually > wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset... > like way upset. :) > > >> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad. >> > > That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard > to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to > continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever. > > >> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees >> and neither I abuse GIMP's staff. >> > > You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day > the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to > their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff > users asked for was done). > > Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially > in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained > software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you > will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of > GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an > active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism, > and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding > that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to > control your own temper in these threads. > > > >> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. >> > > You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying > to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move. > > >> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, >> and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP >> saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not >> worth explaining things. >> > > You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a > snowflake and be a bit civil yourself. > > >> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this >> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about >> it". >> > > Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not > on this mailing list. > > If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it. >> > > Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not > just GIMP culture, that's life in general. > > -C > > >> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <cajhne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the >>> thread: >>> >>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just >>> justifying me complaining. >>> >>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that >>> makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to >>> become a GIMP dev? >>> Jesus..." >>> >>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts >>> of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone >>> involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them. >>> >>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :) >>> >>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint. >>> >>> Just an outsider's perspective. >>> -C >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via >>> gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't >>>> know if >>>> > people can read it. >>>> > >>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in >>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who >>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep >>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you >>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP). >>>> > >>>> >>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- >>>> you >>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call >>>> me >>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that. >>>> >>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will >>>> help >>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy. >>>> >>>> >>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but >>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that >>>> they >>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior >>>> is >>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If >>>> it's not, >>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be >>>> as much >>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree >>>> with >>>> > you. >>>> > >>>> >>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went >>>> for, >>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct: >>>> >>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html >>>> >>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive >>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____." >>>> >>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here. >>>> >>>> Good day to you. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>>> > alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with >>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone >>>> who >>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. >>>> I >>>> >>> guess it's you against the world. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and >>>> --in >>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least >>>> reply--if they >>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your >>>> behavior >>>> >>> is OK?). >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing >>>> lists >>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get >>>> >> emails sent to those list. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me >>>> don't as >>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two >>>> other >>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can >>>> pinpoint >>>> >> the relevant threads. >>>> >> >>>> >> Exhibit A: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just >>>> wanted to >>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact >>>> same >>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>> >> >>>> >> This is this very thread: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/ >>>> >> >>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to >>>> use in >>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to >>>> say that >>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's >>>> "mindset >>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I >>>> said >>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying >>>> "Facts... >>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)". >>>> >> >>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off >>>> the >>>> >> ropes. >>>> >> >>>> >> And Exhibit B: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>> thread >>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on >>>> something. >>>> >> Even if you win, you lose... >>>> >> >>>> >> This is this very thread: >>>> >> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/ >>>> >> >>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend >>>> shocking 3 >>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, >>>> and >>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person >>>> characterized the >>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement. >>>> >> >>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the >>>> >> very same thread -- >>>> >> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ >>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes >>>> between >>>> >> versions. >>>> >> >>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote: >>>> >> >>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of >>>> tagging a >>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for >>>> the next >>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart >>>> attack, >>>> >>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> >>> >>> >>>> >> here." >>>> >> >>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think >>>> our >>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. >>>> >> >>>> >> Alex >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for >>>> your >>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for >>>> yourself only, >>>> >>> but for other people as well. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>>> >>> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have >>>> a >>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about >>>> something they >>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn >>>> before >>>> >>>> drawing conclusions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to >>>> releases >>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I >>>> should have >>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos >>>> verbal >>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx>: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hello. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> TLDR: >>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that >>>> he's >>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing >>>> things >>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) >>>> role, which >>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> FULL: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): >>>> I've >>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest >>>> exchange is >>>> >>>>> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq >>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at >>>> >>>>> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. >>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What >>>> triggered >>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than >>>> random >>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade >>>> hundreds >>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he >>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should >>>> refactor >>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). >>>> Regardless, >>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release >>>> because, bla >>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying >>>> that I had >>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but >>>> neither is he >>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: >>>> just because >>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, >>>> which is >>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas >>>> with people >>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to >>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to >>>> be honest >>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I >>>> didn't say >>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally >>>> different >>>> >>>>> beast. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I >>>> started >>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre >>>> attacked around >>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg >>>> guy >>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just >>>> wanted to >>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact >>>> same >>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Another message: >>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough >>>> people had >>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on >>>> something. >>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose... >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff >>>> like >>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about >>>> it", or using >>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" >>>> being >>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, >>>> because >>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome >>>> free >>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I >>>> found out >>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in >>>> non-technical ways. >>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a >>>> developer but >>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while >>>> pretending to be a >>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned >>>> from >>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's >>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. >>>> It's easy >>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already >>>> passionate GIMP >>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really >>>> talk to, >>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an >>>> awesome project >>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a >>>> critic >>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, >>>> pretending >>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the >>>> dev team, >>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled >>>> assholes. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me >>>> since I would >>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) >>>> you guys >>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with >>>> this >>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his >>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for >>>> someone who >>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Niccolo. >>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>>> Niccolo. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> Niccolo. >>>> >>> >>>> >> -- >>>> > Niccolo. >>>> > >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list >>>> List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx >>>> List membership: >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list >>>> List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list >>>> >>> -- >> Niccolo. >> > -- Niccolo. _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
