On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if > people can read it. > > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP). > I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that. If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy. > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not, > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with > you. > I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct: https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____." Please consider rethinking your interaction here. Good day to you. Alex > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < > alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people. >>> >>> It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I >>> guess it's you against the world. >>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior >>> is OK?). >>> >> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get >> emails sent to those list. >> >> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), >>> >> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint >> the relevant threads. >> >> Exhibit A: >> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same >> ground with him just a few days earlier. >> >> This is this very thread: >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/ >> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts... >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)". >> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the >> ropes. >> >> And Exhibit B: >> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. >> Even if you win, you lose... >> >> This is this very thread: >> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/ >> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3 >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the >> official 2.10.8 announcement. >> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the >> very same thread -- >> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between >> versions. >> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote: >> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack, >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> >> here." >> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. >> >> Alex >> >> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only, >>> but for other people as well. >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Niccolo, >>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before >>>> drawing conclusions. >>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal >>>> abuse containing expletives. >>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that. >>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx>: >>>> >>>>> Hello. >>>>> >>>>> TLDR: >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason. >>>>> >>>>> FULL: >>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq >>>>> from the Reddit thread at >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people >>>>> that have unapproved opinions. >>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different >>>>> beast. >>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include: >>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Another message: >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. >>>>> Even if you win, you lose... >>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team. >>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes. >>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Niccolo. >>>>> -- >>>>> Niccolo. >>>>> >>>> -- >>> Niccolo. >>> >> -- > Niccolo. > _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
