> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct Ah, I see how you've been able to get away with it. Fair enough. On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 15:01 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know >> if people can read it. >> >> Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in >> court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who >> represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep >> saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you >> misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP). >> > > I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you > have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me > a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that. > > If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help > your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy. > > >> Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but >> considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they >> know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is >> appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not, >> don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much >> of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with >> you. >> > > I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for, > is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct: > > https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html > > "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive > arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____." > > Please consider rethinking your interaction here. > > Good day to you. > > Alex > > > >> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < >> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with >>>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who >>>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people. >>>> >>>> It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I >>>> guess it's you against the world. >>>> >>>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in >>>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they >>>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior >>>> is OK?). >>>> >>> >>> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing >>> lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get >>> emails sent to those list. >>> >>> >>>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as >>>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), >>>> >>> >>> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two >>> other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can >>> pinpoint the relevant threads. >>> >>> Exhibit A: >>> >>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to >>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same >>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>> >>> This is this very thread: >>> >>> >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/ >>> >>> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use >>> in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say >>> that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's >>> "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing >>> I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying >>> "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)". >>> >>> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the >>> ropes. >>> >>> And Exhibit B: >>> >>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread >>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. >>> Even if you win, you lose... >>> >>> This is this very thread: >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/ >>> >>> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking >>> 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and >>> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the >>> official 2.10.8 announcement. >>> >>> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the >>> very same thread -- >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ >>> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between >>> versions. >>> >>> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote: >>> >>> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging >>> a release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the >>> next version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart >>> attack, save for our friend /u/Unchayned >>> <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> here." >>> >>> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our >>> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> >>>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for >>>> your actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself >>>> only, but for other people as well. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < >>>> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Niccolo, >>>>> >>>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a >>>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they >>>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before >>>>> drawing conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases >>>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have >>>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal >>>>> abuse containing expletives. >>>>> >>>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that. >>>>> >>>>> Alexandre >>>>> >>>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx>: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello. >>>>>> >>>>>> TLDR: >>>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's >>>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things >>>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which >>>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason. >>>>>> >>>>>> FULL: >>>>>> >>>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've >>>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq >>>>>> from the Reddit thread at >>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. >>>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered >>>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random >>>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds >>>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he >>>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor >>>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, >>>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla >>>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had >>>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he >>>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because >>>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is >>>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people >>>>>> that have unapproved opinions. >>>>>> >>>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to >>>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest >>>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say >>>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different >>>>>> beast. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I >>>>>> started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre >>>>>> attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >>>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to >>>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same >>>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another message: >>>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. >>>>>> Even if you win, you lose... >>>>>> >>>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like >>>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using >>>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being >>>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because >>>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free >>>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out >>>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. >>>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but >>>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a >>>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from >>>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's >>>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy >>>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP >>>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, >>>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project >>>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic >>>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending >>>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, >>>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre >>>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would >>>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys >>>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this >>>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his >>>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who >>>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Niccolo. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Niccolo. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Niccolo. >>>> >>> -- >> Niccolo. >> > -- Niccolo. _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
