Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if people can read it. Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP). This feedback is shared with other members of the community--which haven't asked to be identified. Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not, don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with you. On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with >> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who >> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people. >> >> It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I >> guess it's you against the world. >> >> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in >> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they >> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior >> is OK?). >> > > I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists > you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get > emails sent to those list. > > >> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as >> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears), >> > > Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other > problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint > the relevant threads. > > Exhibit A: > > >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came > off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell > you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground > with him just a few days earlier. > > This is this very thread: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/ > > There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in > GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that > lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset > of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said > in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts... > Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)". > > I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the > ropes. > > And Exhibit B: > > >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread > entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. > Even if you win, you lose... > > This is this very thread: > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/ > > Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3 > minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and > patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the > official 2.10.8 announcement. > > "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very > same thread -- > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ > -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between > versions. > > And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote: > > "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a > release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next > version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack, > save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> > here." > > There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our > interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. > > Alex > > >> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your >> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only, >> but for other people as well. >> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < >> alexandre.prokoudine@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> Hi Niccolo, >>> >>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a >>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they >>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before >>> drawing conclusions. >>> >>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases >>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have >>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal >>> abuse containing expletives. >>> >>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that. >>> >>> Alexandre >>> >>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw@xxxxxxxxx>: >>> >>>> Hello. >>>> >>>> TLDR: >>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a >>>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that >>>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes >>>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason. >>>> >>>> FULL: >>>> >>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've >>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq >>>> from the Reddit thread at >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. >>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered >>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random >>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds >>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he >>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor >>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, >>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla >>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had >>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he >>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because >>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is >>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people >>>> that have unapproved opinions. >>>> >>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to >>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest >>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say >>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different >>>> beast. >>>> >>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started >>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around >>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include: >>>> >>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy >>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to >>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same >>>> ground with him just a few days earlier. >>>> >>>> Another message: >>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another >>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had >>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. >>>> Even if you win, you lose... >>>> >>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like >>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using >>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being >>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because >>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free >>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out >>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. >>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but >>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a >>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from >>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team. >>>> >>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's >>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy >>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP >>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, >>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project >>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic >>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending >>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, >>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes. >>>> >>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre >>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would >>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys >>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this >>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his >>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who >>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team. >>>> >>>> >>>> Niccolo. >>>> -- >>>> Niccolo. >>>> >>> -- >> Niccolo. >> > -- Niccolo. _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
