-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Hi, I wanted to avoid replying to this thread, but this message forced me to do so since it is spreading misinformation. On Thu, 2020-05-14 at 06:33 -0500, Ty Young wrote: > On 5/13/20 4:58 PM, Solomon Peachy wrote: > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 04:04:50PM -0500, Ty Young wrote: > > > Anyway, I'm just asking that Fedora not repeat what Debian did. > > > While > > > I find it to be a bit paranoid, I understand the concerns > > > regarding > > > someone sneaking in malware into pre-build binaries. I'm just > > > asking > > > Fedora not package the software at all in that case, or any > > > software > > > that depends on that software if possible. People who want to > > > support > > > Linux by writing software shouldn't be bothered with bug reports > > > from > > > issues they never created to begin with. > > "Fedora" doesn't package software; individuals do. Those > > individuals > > are free to package whatever they like, and Fedora will distribute > > those > > packages if they meet the well-established packaging criteria. > > Whichever you choose. Large projects like Gnome and Fedora refer to > themselves as one large organization one minute and then as > individuals > the next. It reminds me of how everyone says "Linux" is less > resource > hungry then Windows but "Linux" is just a kernel, as those same > people > will often say in "Linux"'s defense. > > > and it's those "well-established" packaging criteria are the reason > people stopped packaging Java software for Fedora, according to many > emails. People did not stop packaging Java software for Fedora. Some of them did because packaging some of Java projects is hard, because upstream makes it hard to do so. By relying on old versions of dependencies, bundling them, switching buildsystem to gradle (which is basically impossible to package because of same reasons). > > > > Those packagers, and Fedora, are "supporting Linux". > > The amount of disdain and disrespect for third-party, and/or > independent > software developers and/or creators who don't conform to your > clubhouse > rules is palpable. > > > > Meanwhile, for every distribution-created "bug" there are ten > > thousand > > that created by the upstream authors. Most upstreams are mature > > enough > > to recognize this, and consider distribution-level packaging (and > > front-line user support) efforts to be, on the whole, a net gain. > > Nonsense spewing with no proof. Well, you have started this. Can you provide some statistics how many bugs were introduced by distributions versus upstream bugs. > > The Debian Xscreensaver fiasco is enough proof that contradicts your > ridiculous claims and there are plenty more, including: Well, this does not apply to Fedora as-is because we are trying to ship latest versions of software as much as possible. That's one of key F's of Fedora - First. > > * Game developers largely refuse to support Linux, and the some of > the > few that have have or are currently pulling support citing > fragmentation(support) issues. Fragmentation is the issue, yes. But I think this decade we are finally trying to converge. Flatpaks, RPM improvements and such. > > * Hardware support for AMD GPUs is all over the place and even if > technically supported, can be too buggy to use. This is largely > because > kernel/mesa versions are all over the place. Same here, in Fedora we try to keep kernel and mesa on latest versions as much as we can, so this does not apply to us. > > * Some software packaged even in large Linux distros like Ubuntu as > part > of their enabled-by-default repos don't even launch. Codeblocks in > around 16.04, IIRC, didn't even launch once you install it. You had > to > use their privately hosted repo to install a newer version. I agree that this is issue and bugs should be reported against such software. This area is not really explored by distributions much, but here at least we have quite good test suite for default Workstation applications, so contributing tests for other software is very welcome. Probably best place to talk about this would be test@ or ci@. > > * You often need to install third-party repos to get up-to-date > software > since packages are way too slow, or the distros just choose to use > very > old software(Debian). This problem was supposed to be solved by Fedora Modularity, though from my POV it did not succeed (yet?). > > * Bugs fixed in newer versions of Gnome shell aren't backported to > older > versions. It looks like they have extended support, but I doubt it's > for > the same amount of time Ubuntu supports an LTS. Even if it did, only > newer Gnome shell versions are supported for that long. 18.04 > probably > has shell bugs right now that are fixed in newer Gnome versions. We do backport some of the fixes to stable Fedora versions, but it is huge effort and we try to do best. Do not forget that packages are maintained by individuals who do not get paid to work on this (some do, but that is minority and most likely they get paid for RHEL work rather than Fedora). If you think there is some nice bug fix to be applied - submit Pull Request. Though this conflicts with your statements above that we should stop patching software and just give upstream binaries, because upstream most likely will never fix some bugs in old versions but in Fedora we might. > > > * There have been security bugs found in packaged software like Grub > that have existed in years despite being one of the most widely > packaged > and used software on Linux. Did you see how many patches are applied to grub2 in Fedora? Security issues are everywhere? Were they introduced by distribution-specific patches? Pretty sure they were patched in Fedora much faster than upstream released new version. > > * Linux distros do not resolve dependancy conflicts correctly. > Ubuntu > last time I checked still requires you manually install 32-bit libs > in > order to launch Steam instead of doing that for the user. Well, if there is specific bug in Fedora - please report it. Installing steam from rpmfusion gives me working steam and I did not have any issues with it. > > * Linux distro GUI package managers are generally poorly designed > and > buggy. That screenshot of Fedora's cinnamon spin's packager manager > GUI > I posted here showed that plenty. Other distros aren't much better. > Manjaro/Arch Linux's "Pamac" GUI had a bug where it sees itself as a > running package manager instance and refused to upgrade or install > software on a failed AUR software build/install. I can not argue with this. But if you would get same software from upstream, it won't be better at all because those bugs are not specific to distributions. You are very welcome to design and create bug-free GUI package manager ;) > > * Linux distros "taint" software they package and install by, for > example, enabling shell extensions in Gnome by default. This more > likely > than not results in false bug reports. Fedora even does this! I can't speak for all software, but enabling some extensions by default is up to Workstation WG, they evaluate options and decide what is good for majority of Workstation users. For some other software it might be some legal requirements or things like that. Remember that people have best intents when packaging software. Mistakes happen and you should just let people know and they will do their best to address problem. > > I could literally go on and on. The "my-shit-don't-stink" attitude is > so > terrible it's borderline sad. > > > > - Solomon > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Fedora Code of Conduct: > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > > List Guidelines: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > > List Archives: > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - -- Igor Raits <ignatenkobrain@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEcwgJ58gsbV5f5dMcEV1auJxcHh4FAl69O54ACgkQEV1auJxc Hh4n2hAAs/ypvXOuBKUK1HvSO4ZM275g5nBYsYH/ZGvym26QeLPNPsbxGlJ7PoEm zI8tiuavo8b5gXhxH/jPGJbGs2QAZjyXJOv84PdauYqK3Crtq1mVLlsv7spnPDZA fY+7G9rRR418swASwOzITQEXne0ynci/XqF9gPC3vJ1fmDW9q0t6/P6JTIXGqnZQ Xg+yIMRVZeJI+e5wikXbK0liBhK1FhVGvLsTRqloynF6PGgwynX5uSvNM84c2Wt2 3A9jhN6puEBem6q1gaKphnMJ49pZ1wwnLEV+YUlZ6LMaCZqlur77xj/wsyyumGv+ wH6U8Fh7AK/8oCBTHSZFeVJYm6ohMHqwL5TzCVrTiv6vBHxbZFQ5H39aLX7IZp/T MMkVS2wn5pxgcu9PnTqRPdeZDzVhBFGfn7MYULwGZJW16DRD5gyGSx6HO93Ogoh5 L9uYZt1dwB501VRP4QrXBll22RtjJmM+Q25zA5MZ9ZkQu7EVB1wVVAvxGmO8Jsvg //bm+h1R7wiFko0M03Lr6dA8FSFkAHVhwYTqcP9ziFC8kqcFbk/ZT8WA54vHcQVg pYz47cCWlR9OaELpGfG+N8arhC/pxn7UbV1Cms+QyVrr6+ZE2g+wYyHocLYBdg/A y9qn9/tKS/NIO9+LG3zf99MZ7qqvBD8OFYLIxfxyFmgBc6vx7k0= =fRIR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
