On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:23:20PM +0200, Aleksandra Bookwar wrote: [...snip...] > > Or the gsettings tool, which is included by default. That doesn't > > address the root cause which is glyph coverage, because the goal is > > for the environment to have a fresh, consistent look using Cantarell. > > Can you provide me the links to any docs which describe > _officially_suppported_way_ to change fonts, that I can give to our > users when they ask me how to do this? Don't you see that all the info > about changing fonts now refer to gnome-tweak-tool? I think you're arguing about something I'm not here. You indicated we need to provide gnome-tweak-tool by default. I agree that gnome-tweak-tool is useful for a subset of users. You said that was the only way to change fonts, and I indicated it could be done with gsettings as well, and that's included already. Examples of commands are already going to be included in the release notes, e.g.: http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=blob;f=en-US/Desktop.xml;h=e3159d0857b2ce1dbfea75b6842ed049bc7a4971;hb=refs/heads/f15 The Releas Notes clearly indicate that gnome-tweak-tool is available, and how to install it in cases where specific changes are desired. There are other tweaks that tool doesn't address, and gsettings is useful for that larger superset. > > Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful. We all talk within fairly > > isolated communities so personal experience isn't the most helpful > > measurement. Since GNOME 3 is designed to meet a much larger > > audience, I suppose measurement would have to take a representative > > sample that eliminates the biases of (1) people who use IRC, mailing > > lists, etc., (2) people you (or I) know, and so on. > > This wasn't the reductio ad absurdum. Sorry, I thought that's what you meant by submitting this to popular vote, but I apologize for the lame joke on my part. :-) > People at fedoraforum.org, linux.org.ru, #fedora IRC-chat are not > some persons who live next door, and Google Search doesn't do the > searching inside my neighbours only. This is a world-wide community > which I am talking about. I think I have a pretty good appreciation for that, but thanks for the reminder! :-) Also, remember when you search you are automatically focusing with biases based on your terms, as well as Google's algorithm results, which depend to some extent on what people like you care about. So again, I'm just saying it's not a representative way to make a universal statement about what people do or don't need. > I guess you don't have much time to spend on lurking the > web-resources, as I did last week (I'd say I spent the whole week in > the internet so far). Generally it's not good idea to guess or assume things in this way about others. I promise not to make assumptions about your intentions or personal schedule and hope you'll do me the same courtesy. :-) > As almost a head of local fedora support (unofficial title yes, and > local doesn't mean small here ) who tries to be in contact with all > others, I have rather wide variety of opinions and I can provide you > needed number of links, just ask. Again, I don't think that gives a representative sample of where GNOME 3's aiming. By nature we're already restricting the population to "current Fedora users," which is a subset. > >> >> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of > >> >> packages, put it on Live images and so on > >> >> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also. > >> > > >> > This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people > >> > expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15. > >> > >> What measurements do you have to support this assertion? > > > > Please re-read the sentence. It says "should" for a reason. ;-) What > > that means is, if GNOME 3 meets its design goals, a tweaking tool > > shouldn't be necessary. Now, it's certainly arguable that 3.0 doesn't > > quite get there, but for me at least it's gone a heck of a long way, > > and I personally haven't found a reason to run gnome-tweak-tool yet. > > Once again, we are going to ship Fedora 15 with Gnome 3.0, not Gnome > 3.2. That is the problem. And of course gnome-tweak-tool is not the > best solution, but temporary working one. To spend a little bit of > your time to improve it, that's all I am asking. I don't think shipping F15 with GNOME 3.0 is a problem -- it's a feature and a point of pride. Sure, it's not perfect, but you could say the same thing about GNOME 2.12 or 2.24 (random picks, I don't have any specific beef with those releases either). For every release there's a point where content or code has to freeze, and further changes need to target the next release so the product can ship. I recommend working with the upstream in a constructive way to help move 3.2 forward. Some suggestions I've already made are gathering teams to improve glyph coverage in the Cantarell font, and filing bugs for problems you've observed in 3.0 that need to be fixed for 3.2. I'm sure there are more and that we'll find lots of ways to keep both GNOME 3.2 and Fedora 16 on a road of continual improvement. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com -- desktop mailing list desktop@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
