On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 06:42:42PM +0200, Aleksandra Bookwar wrote: > >> The bug is here https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636655. > >> And discussion is still open. > > > > Probably needs a different bug open upstream explaining the problem, > > then, since the massive ellipsization problem the bug references seems > > to be fixed, AFAICT. > > The ellipsization problem is fixed but this "fix" as a design solution > is still disussed there. I can file a new bug on this, but I am afraid > it will be closed as a duplicate or notabug feature. > > Bug or not, this problem exists in current Gnome desktop. And changing > gnome-shell theme is the only workaround we have. Everyone working on the new GNOME 3 knows there are still some bugs, and is working to fix them. And I would expect 3.2 to be better in this regard. I'm not convinced a new theme is the answer to the problem as opposed to working upstream to fix bugs. > >> - fonts > >> Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with > >> non-Latin characters. > >> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open. > > > > Fair enough, the Cantarell font is missing some glyph coverage. Why > > not organize a team to help extend that, since it would be more useful > > globally? Perhaps there's already a move afoot for this, because > > certainly the same can be said of Asian languages. > > Again, even this is a bug, it exists in current Gnome desktop, and > there is no hope that it will be fixed before F15 release. And > gnome-tweak-tool provides the only workaround for Asian, Russian and > other not so small communities. Or the gsettings tool, which is included by default. That doesn't address the root cause which is glyph coverage, because the goal is for the environment to have a fresh, consistent look using Cantarell. > >> I want to emphasize that changing default settings is not an > >> exceptional use-case for F15 Gnome users. It is a normal thing which > >> will be used very often. > > > > What measurements do you have to support this assertion? > > If the four issues listed don't make it evident for you, I want to > reformulate this question as follows: What measurements will you be > satisfied with? > > I have a number of people I talked with directly, IRC logs from both > #fedora-qa and #gnome-shell channels, maillist discussions, forum > threads, blog posts, deviant-art group and Google Search results. I > can calculate the number of non-english speaking users also. > > How many links should I provide? Or should we organize some public voting? Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful. We all talk within fairly isolated communities so personal experience isn't the most helpful measurement. Since GNOME 3 is designed to meet a much larger audience, I suppose measurement would have to take a representative sample that eliminates the biases of (1) people who use IRC, mailing lists, etc., (2) people you (or I) know, and so on. Of course, I'm not the person you have to convince, I'm trying to point out the flaws in the logic of "People I know agree with me, therefore I'm right." > >> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of > >> packages, put it on Live images and so on > >> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also. > > > > This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people > > expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15. > > What measurements do you have to support this assertion? Please re-read the sentence. It says "should" for a reason. ;-) What that means is, if GNOME 3 meets its design goals, a tweaking tool shouldn't be necessary. Now, it's certainly arguable that 3.0 doesn't quite get there, but for me at least it's gone a heck of a long way, and I personally haven't found a reason to run gnome-tweak-tool yet. I installed it earlier to see what its interface was like and how it presented choices. It uses a lot of terms and presentaion that makes sense to people fairly deeply interested in OS details, or predisposed to tweaking. But that represents a small subset of the people for whom GNOME 3 is designed. Other people will be confused by it (e.g. "anti-aliasing," "Let file manager handle desktop"). > To make this clear, > i am not a developer or packager, and I have no rights to decide if > package is ready or not to be shipped by default. This was my > suggestion, if you have any ideas, please, welcome. > > My point here is: > stop hiding the customization problem and stop hiding from > customization problem, start to work on it. Look at the patches > provided and give comments on them. > > Users are not all stupid and useless and don't getting the Very > Important Gnome Idea just because they want to change the color of the > top bar. > > I do know that being "non-customizable" has always been the feature of > the Gnome desktop. I've used Gnome for 6 years because of this > feature. But during all these years I could change the theme of window > titlebar to Mist and the color of the panel to transparent. This was > the desktop I loved. > > Being loyal to Gnome 3 I didn't list here all these "move the clocks > to the right", "add dock", "put smth into tray", "where is my taskbar" > and other user comments I noticed. Because Gnome 3 has its logic and > reasons and I understand it. I'm not against the Gnome ideas, I am > trying to make them better. I understand, and I don't believe you have any bad intentions. I'm simply saying this particular change doesn't seem overly useful to me. If I were someone working on the code upstream to implement the new GNOME 3 designs, I'd be very circumspect about encouraging any change that defeats the design. We can agree to disagree of course. :-) As someone who's been keenly interested in building the Fedora brand for a number of years, I think there are greener pastures we should be looking toward, one of which I mentioned earlier. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com -- desktop mailing list desktop@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
