While I do agree with your discloser of the bloat for all off the shelf frameworks. I created my own framework and my development time drop drastically and not by a few hours, in some cases days. The complaint of time is always an issue, if you do not scope out a project properly. Timelines and IPR's (In Process Reviews) will keep the developers sane, and the customer happy. It tells the customer: I have given you expectation timelines on how long it will take me to get to each point in development. It also gives you an opportunity to find obstacles in development that can be discussed or redirected with another option before the project begins. Any added edge on the timelines, allows for extra creativity and pit falls. The worst thing you can do? Not take time to understand your development process and coding practices. To use someone else's framework is asking for trouble. Like most who download a framework, install it. They just setup the config and start programming. Bad, Bad, BAD!!!! If you took the time to flow through the framework, you might understand all the things you never want to happen that can cause serious latency issues. Then soon learn, you are better off just writing your own or developing a coding practice that keeps your timelines consistent. If you are using a database, PLEASE learn what is called Relational modeling. The fastest server in the world will not help a poorly designed database, causing 78% of all latency in projects that are DB driven. I never claimed to be the expert here, I just know what has made me very successful. Richard L. Buskirk -----Original Message----- From: Paul M Foster [mailto:paulf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 1:46 AM To: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Doctrine madness! On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:53:18PM -0400, Eric Butera wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > [snip] > > I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. I used to write my queries by > hand, but over time you start to realize that perhaps, maybe writing > out thousands of identical lines of code over hundreds of projects > might not be an efficient usage of time. If you have performant > requirements, that is one thing and can easily be overcome with slight > deviations on a case by case basis. Most of the time, contrary to > your position, things just need to work and be completed quickly. > What is the more common question from clients: why is this so slow, > or, client asks why is this not finished yet? I generally side with Daevid on this, though my position isn't as extreme. However, I have to take exception to the "either/or" question from clients. As far as I'm concerned, clients need to learn that coding takes as long as it takes. I'd much rather spend the extra time and never have the customer ask why the code is so slow. The theoretical alternative, having the customer satisfied with the delivery time, but complain about latency, isn't what I'd consider acceptable. Looking at some of the code that comprises most ORM and other frameworks (but particularly ORM frameworks) the bloat is amazing. Paul -- Paul M. Foster http://noferblatz.com http://quillandmouse.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
