On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Eric Butera [mailto:eric.butera@xxxxxxxxx] >> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 2:58 PM >> To: Daevid Vincent >> Cc: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Doctrine madness! >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:quickshiftin@xxxxxxxxx] >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:51 AM >> >> To: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> Subject: Doctrine madness! >> >> >> >> Hi gang, >> >> >> >> If anyone out there has some experience w/ Doctrine now would be a great >> >> time to share it! >> > >> > Yeah, I've used Doctrine as part of Symfony. Both suck balls and are a >> perfect example of why you should NEVER use frameworks. Lesson learned the >> hard way. Re-write with your own MySQL wrappers and for the love of God and >> all that is holy do NOT make it an ORM wrapper. >> > >> > KTHXBYE. >> > >> >> I do believe that was the most eloquent and enlightened email that has >> ever graced my inbox. ÂThank you for taking the time to edify us with >> that pithy reply. > > Glad I could be of service. There was no point in elaborating more on either Doctrine or Symfony any further. > > Sometimes, like that guy that fell down the canyon, you have to cut your own arm off with a swiss army knife to save your life. In this case, get rid of Doctrine or any other ORM, despite the painful operation, and save your project from a slow and agonizing death. > > ORM's and "ActiveRecord" style wrappers, while sounding sexy -- like the "babe" on the other end of a 1-900 number -- usually turn out to be fat and bloated. All that "magic" comes at a price. This is why Ruby on Rails has started to fall out of favor with ANY big shop and you are hearing less and less about it. It's cute and seems magnificent at first, but quickly starts to show its limitations and short-comings when you REALLY try to use it. > > :) > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. I used to write my queries by hand, but over time you start to realize that perhaps, maybe writing out thousands of identical lines of code over hundreds of projects might not be an efficient usage of time. If you have performant requirements, that is one thing and can easily be overcome with slight deviations on a case by case basis. Most of the time, contrary to your position, things just need to work and be completed quickly. What is the more common question from clients: why is this so slow, or, client asks why is this not finished yet? I do like the half-hearted diatribe against ROR, which I will assume is a wildcard, allow any language/framework combination to stand-in. The real take-away message here is that you're trying to paint everything with the brush that you see the world in, while the reality is that not everyone has your requirements. Personally, I don't enjoy trying to mess around with ill-conceived, backwards-compatible adhering designs from 12 years ago. I understand that growth is organic and deal with it on a daily basis in my own projects. Hence, I use a framework and other tooling that allows me to complete jobs in a tidy and orderly fashion. If I need something a little more cutting-edge I can always drop down lower on the stack to bypass PHP with other techniques like caching or bypassing the framework altogether. To say that all frameworks are a complete waste of time and will only (absolutely) end in failure is quite a disservice to anyone who reads this list. I've seen too many people over the years try and rally against common sense practices like using prepared statements for perhaps a marginal gain of performance on one page while their load averages are 0,0,0. One archived post could be the cause of 50 hacked websites. This is not the position people - or, mentors, if you will - should be taking. Same with other tools that allow developers to crank out projects orders faster. This post isn't meant to be some vitriol inspired rant, but rather a sincere wake-up. Imagine the intended audience of php-general and ask yourself if you're doing harm. An example: when I say harm, every other framework I have seen from php (ok, ok, ZF makes you call escape), ruby, python, and node all escape variables in templates/views by default. PHP is the only one that lets you echo out XSS out of the box. Of course, with diligence and time we can all overcome these things, but that does not mean someone with the ambition to bang together a quick website for a relative understands the real perils they're getting into - I certainly did not. Now I wonder how calamity did not destroy everything in my beginnings. Times have changed since then and our sites are under constant scrutiny from bots utilizing things like search engines to find easy holes. I'd much rather have by default an easy to use, extensible, moderately-secured system than not. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
