Tony Marston wrote:
"Nathan Rixham" <nrixham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:497354C3.9090207@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Per Jessen wrote:
Nathan Rixham wrote:
point is..
Java let's me easily do 70% of what I need to
PHP let's me easily do 95% of what I need to
I'm curious - can you list what the 25% are?
it lacks dynamic typing, the ability to procedural code and its
precompiled not interpreted; all in a hello world in php is 10 seconds, in
java it's nigh on 10 minutes. Hence why php is such a good language
If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that
but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our
multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as
would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP)
But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not
much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit
is due.
well I can give two examples:
Three other PHP Developers and myself spent the best part of a year
creating a large multi-site event management system in PHP; the whole
process was deeply frustrating primarily due to the lack of optional
static typing and there in the lack of a solid ORM; with this small
addition the whole process would have been a 6 month process if that, and
a far more pleasurable experience.
Really? In 2007 I single-handedly designed and built an ERP system with 130
database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 screens, all with PHP and
without an ORM and static typing. This took me 6 months. If you can't equal
that then either you are not much of a programmer, or your development style
is not as good as you think it is. If other people can write perfectly good
applications in PHP without the extra features that you say are
indispensible then why can't you?
clap clap, would you like to compare dick size? You have no idea of the
size or scope of the applications I've developed by myself or as part of
team tony, so why even attempt to comment? Why assume that I haven't
written perfectly good applications in PHP and that incapable of it when
the opposite is true. Again tony, nobody is knocking php simply saying
that in some scenarios development time could be speeded up by adding in
static typing; perhaps you've not came accross this but I and others have.
Currently 7 other Java developers and myself are building a large
multisite transportation management and ticketing system in Java, this is
a 9 month project with a decent sized and very skilled team; because of
the lack of static typing (and thus the lack of development tools and
frameworks/orms for PHP) we've had to go with Java; TBH the static typing
is only needed on the domain model and the api layer, the bulk of the
business logic in between where the majority of the work comes in, would
be a great deal easier using a mix of procedural code and dynamic typing.
I'd argue that again the development time of this project could be halfed
if it was done in PHP AND if in PHP had support for optional static typing
coupled with a good ORM.
If you want a good ORM then write one yourself, or is that beyond your
capabilities?
already am tony, and have spotted areas where by adding optional static
typing:
a: it could be improved
b: code could be optimized
c: development time could be considerably reduced
Personally I wouldn't touch an ORM with a barge pole. I develop applications
using the 3 Tier Architecture (no, it's not the same as MVC) with a Data
Access layer that I can easily switch between MySQL, PostgreSQL and Oracle.
If I can do it then why can't you?
likewise, although I would touch an ORM in certain cases (but not with
your barge pole), frequently use modified n-tier or the good ol 3 tier
architecture with preference going to using a class based oo paradigm
rather than a prototype style, and have written many data access and
persistance layers which can switch between different RDBMS both pre pdo
and post pdo. If I can see the need for this.. why can't you? <weg>
Further the difference between precompilation and interpretation is v
noticable when it comes to rolling applications out, often in development
you want to run a hlaf built or broken application to see what happens and
check if parts x y and z are good + to test your infrastructure; when you
can't compile and do this testing becuase the app isn't bug free or
completed it's rather limiting. Sometimes unit tests just don't cover what
you need.
Additionally, rather sure you'd see a mass influx of people moving to
php, and applications created for it - even down to design tools such
as reverse and forward engineering between uml and php.
ack.. there's a tonne of amazing tools and frameworks for java, and
I'm sure that a vast majority of them are possible because of this
static typing (from orms to web service frameworks and all in between)
- am I so bad for wanting that for php and my fellow devs?
No, you're not so bad :-) The point is - why not just use Java, when you
really need the features?
the cases above should show why, fact is (imho) PHP would be a far better
language than java for web based applications in 99% of cases if it had
this optional static typing and the tools that allows. *IF* it did, then
10 other people and myself wouldn't have wasted a year of there lives on
writing what could be unneeded code; I'm sure I'm not the only one in this
position.
If you spend a year writing useless code, then it's your fault, not PHPs.
It's a bad workman who blames his tools.
a year writing useless code? no tony.. again you misunderstand - I've
been able to post analyse the projects and see that if language x had
certain optional functionality then development time could have been
reduced. Given that it didn't have this functionality the development
time and implemented solutions where correct.
although.. I'd be lying if I didn't say that as every year goes past I
don't learn a bit more and thus didn't improve/adapt/change the way I
code. Always learning. Hell if I didn't I'd still be developing in
chilisoft asp and outputting everything in html4 with frames and tables
everywhere!
thanks again tony :-)
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