At 9:07 PM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote:
I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you
haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole
box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some
fudge room.
Rob:
My site (http://sperling.com) is designed to optimize the area
provided it by the browser/user. I realize that the web is not
traditional print and I am attempting to find the "best" way to
present content in this medium.
I have done pixel perfect web pages for clients where they show me a
Photoshop image and say "That's the way we want it to look in all
browsers AND we don't want tables." That's what absolute position is
used for. There isn't a Photoshop image that anyone can show me that
I can't make a "pixel perfect" AND compliant web site out of using
css.
As for the box-model issue, I've faced that, such as in:
http://www.symboldomains.com/
While the site is a bit dated (first release in 2003), it still holds
together. The placement of the border handles IE's difficulty in
understanding the box model (just where does M$ get these browser
developers?).
For more "typical" sites, may I present my past life:
http://www.geophysics.com/
I've been putting up web sites for the last ten years. I went through
the table phase a few years back and I haven't had a reason to go
back. Like documentation and semantic makeup, it just makes sense.
In short, I am a recovering tableholic, but I've been table
independent for five years, eight months, and seven days.
---
You've got me wrong, I don't want to stick with tables, I want to use
the full power of CSS, but unfortunately Microsoft has seen fit to screw
everything up as much as possible.
Yes, there is always difficulty in the world, but realize that we
prosper from it. If web stuff was easy, then everyone would be doing
it correctly.
---
> but if you are as well versed as I am in CSS, then you know that
using tables for layout is more costly in overall development,
> maintenance, sales, and accessibility. To me and my clients, those
things matter.
I agree with accessibility to some degree, but for the rest I think
you're a bit too far out on a limb.
To me, being disabled, accessibility is paramount. Granted I don't
always live up to my mouth, but I try and that's the point.
As for the rest of my claim, my experience is that css reduces cost
for over all development -- it takes *me* less time to develop an
entire site using css than using tables.
Site maintenance is certainly easier -- no reason to dwell on the obvious.
Sales are better for several reason: a) accessibility brings up-to
another 12 percent more customers to the table; b) sites built with
css load faster bringing more people; c) better SEO considerations
brings even more people; d) faster site alteration to cycle products
allows more exposure and makes for a more interesting sites, which
brings back even more people.
The whole point of making a web site is to sell something -- ether a
product, a service, an opinion, yourself, or whatever. The larger the
audience, the more successful you will be. Using css brings in more
people.
---
> Concepts like separating content from presentation, graceful
degradation and progressive enhancement are not just phrases one
imagined so they could sit on a glass pedestal and look down on
everyone else. They are practices that work and are far more reaching
than WYSIWYG table layouts.
Agreed, I practice all of the above, but I feel no guilt in using a
table for a layout when it simplifies the issue. Between box model
issues, float bugs, etc etc, CSS just can't do what needs to be done
yet.
On this we disagree. I have found nothing that tables can do that I
can't do with css AND do it more effectively and efficiently.
The box-model problem and float considerations can be easily dealt
with IF you truly understand the problem they present. There are
things you can use to illustrate the problems just like in php.
For example, we all use pint_r() to show us what values our variables
hold -- it helps in debugging. The same goes for css, try using the
rule "border: 1px solid red;" the next time you're wondering about
why something isn't placed where you want it. Once you see where/how
everything fits together, it's simple to fix it.
Look, you're a competent programmer and php is far more complex than
css will ever be. You're doing yourself a disservice by letting
simple stumbling blocks deter you from using css because you have a
misconception that css isn't ready yet, because it is.
Cheers,
tedd
--
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http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
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