karl shah-jenner <shahjen@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes: > : Yes, strangely enough the people who actually know something of the > : black art of accelerated testing get paid for their work. > > usually by epson.. By everybody -- Epson, Canon, HP, and real paper manufacturers. And third-party ink and paper makers. > : It's the > : random uncontrolled tests by untrained (and hence unpaid) people using > : their south-facing windows that *I* distrust. > > what about your own tests? do you test or trust? I've done very little. Nothing has faded for me, and that's the only case that might possibly mean anything. > What about chemists and people from a chemistry background doing the tests > rather than some bloke with vague credentials who is discredited as often > as not? What about the controlled tests done by the specialists who > didn't realise they were testing POP paper when they were criticising the > longevity of RC papers? Or the carefully controlled tests from prints > gathered willy nilly (including proofs) to show how bad processing causes > this or that? Or the careful tests which failed to notice the sulphiding > component in gold toner was missing.. Who working in accelerated fade testing has been "discredited as often as not"? Or even "often"? Or "at all"? (What constitutes being "discredited" anyway?) > Do I trust the 'develop for 5.5 minutes' instructions, or do I take the > time to run my OWN tests, discovering my pH is different, my water hardness > different, my aggitation different etc from whatever standard is suggested. > Of course I do - I use the reccomendations as a guide and I move on to run > my own tests. I don't buy a camera in a magazine cause some bloke who's > paid well by some third party says it's good - I trial it myself and see if > he's firstly telling the truth, and secondly if it's right for me. I tried to bring my procedures in line with the instructions instead, particularly with regard to agitation, but sure, stuff I can see myself I need to control myself. How does this relate to something as long-term as fade testing? I don't have the 30-year-old ongoing tests to work from, for example. > Just as sitting a Canon S800 print on Epson Archival beside one produced > with pigment inks on an Epson 7600 on the same paper batch told me which > produced better 'looking' images, and which lasted longer under these same > adverse conditions on the rear deck of my car for a summer. Sure, a bunch > of people took my word for the results based on eyeballing the images, just > as a similar bunch of people took my word for the RC Vs FB experiments once > they'd seen the prints - but my word was nothing - they SAW the prints and > evaluated the results themselves.. what they took my word for was the > description of the conditions and the duration of the trials. Could I have > lied? Could another person have lied? We have scientists of GREAT > standing in the world caught falsifying data.. and the bloke I think you're > referring too has not a lot of standing outside digital photo circles. The guy I'm thinking of is the leader in the field, having pretty much invented it 30 years ago. Henry Wilhelm, of course. As for "not a lot of standing outside digital photo circle", that's certainly not the impression I get from looking at reviews of his book and other work (most of which pre-dates any importance of digital photography; the book is entirely about conventional photo materials). His reputation was built pre-digital. > : and in fact for > : amateur use one of the big expenses is often throwing away chemistry > : before it's exhausted because it's time-expired. > > there's expiry dates on toothpicks here in Oz. I think I've got some old toothpicks in a cabinet upstairs *I* wouldn't want to put into my mouth. > stop, fix and blix don't go off, fix can even be easily regenerated! CDr > has a strangely long lifespan, developers can be made to last indefinately > if folks want to take a few simple steps and seperate the dev agents from > the alkalizers.. Someone used to make a monobath developer, later it was > discontinued and literature by many credible sources suggest it was a > failure. They were parrotting the manufacturers reason for the cessation > of manufacture. I've made a few different brews and they are surprisingly > effective AND the damned stuff doesn't go off at all! A year later in an > open bottle you can top up the volume and simply use it - a one step > process! My guess is that it was bad for business.. just as single mix > powdered devs are VERY good for business ;-) Are we back in B&W chemistry here? I've certainly had old developer die. I haven't tried pushing the limits on color materials, because everybody said they were real. > : As for special, expensive, paper -- compared top-line inkjet paper > : against RA-4 photo paper lately? > > about the same here, though 100 sheets of crystal archive for $70 beats > close to $150 for the epson gloss. Huh, $70 is exactly what I pay for 100 sheets of the Epson gloss -- at the local computer store, not even finding a good mail-order source. > : I print a LOT fewer prints to get one good one than I ever did in the > : darkroom. I get the feeling people are forgetting that -- or else > : haven't spent much time in the darkroom and never knew it. > > I can do a strip straight across the guts of the image, make an > adjustment, vary appropriately and get out a print ..if I'm in a > hurry. If I want to take my time I might place 2 strips > strategically the second time round then I'm away. Black and white > wise, 1 strip does me fine unless we have some serious dodging and > burning to do. but then, I *did* spend a lot of time in the > darkroom making lots of prints :-) Yep, sounds rather like my darkroom procedures. I don't need to do test prints much any more, I can see what I need on the monitor. I can also *do* so much more -- I'm not limited by how many hands I have for one thing! -- David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@xxxxxxxx>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
