Well that could have been a misinformed member, and possibly nobody agreed with him. And, at the time, that may have been the case. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:39 PM Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an nfb member stated that built in screen readers were bad for the blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false. On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times. > Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen" > <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very > sadly mistaken. > > > > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in >> skills and high expectations. >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of >> choice. >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact >> that >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other >> organization in interpersonal staff issues. >> And choice does not mean training center choices. >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course >> in >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice >> in >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices >> will >> reach the same end result. >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want >> to >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no >> questions asked. >> They would not have to fight to get it. >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the >> software that the counselor wants them to have. >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. >> >> Glenn >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; >> "Milan >> Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >> >> >> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and >> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get >> them to buy window-eyes. >> 73 >> Butch >> WA0VJR >> Node 3148 >> Wallace, ks. >> >> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: >> >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works >>> exactly. >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive >>> program instead of a largely free one. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>> >>>> Karen, >>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the >>>> counselors >>>> will >>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't >>>> know >>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will >>>> need >>>> to >>>> learn one of the two. >>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the >>>> employer >>>> will allow. >>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws >>>> scripters >>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in >>>> the >>>> business I can say is rubbish. >>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be >>>> chosen, >>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor >>>> feels >>>> is >>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational >>>> purchases, >>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best >>>> interest >>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like >>>> VR >>>> expenditures do. >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>> >>>> >>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, >>>> the >>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their >>>> clients >>>> is quite poor. >>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, >>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really >>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. >>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we >>>> are >>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, >>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give >>>> you >>>> an >>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. >>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>> >>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at >>>>> work, >>>>> and >>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. >>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would >>>>> advocate >>>>> that >>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific >>>>> job. >>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we >>>>> did >>>>> for >>>>> work related situations. >>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed >>>>> purchase a JFL product. >>>>> Glenn >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux >>>>> list >>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say >>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. >>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they >>>>> market >>>>> to the American rehab community. >>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support >>>>> the >>>>> need >>>>> for choices? >>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality >>>>> speech >>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. >>>>> everyone >>>>> brings their needs to the table there. >>>>> >>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there >>>>> is >>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why >>>>>> FS >>>>>> would >>>>>> not be able to do the same. >>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game >>>>>> changer, >>>>>> and >>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing >>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>>> Glenn >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; >>>>>> <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, >>>>>> being >>>>>> bought >>>>>> by another company. >>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools >>>>>> for >>>>>> Linux. >>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You >>>>>> can >>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and >>>>>> options >>>>>> for creativity. >>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>>> characteristics, >>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as >>>>>> it >>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> at >>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive >>>>>> tools >>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at >>>>>> least, >>>>>> the >>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the >>>>>> former >>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. >>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. >>>>>>> JFL >>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> users into Linux. >>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than >>>>>>> Orca. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>> To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he >>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous, >>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility >>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Karen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical >>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better >>>>>>> informed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard >>>>>>> desktop >>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> user >>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process >>>>>>> text >>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer >>>>>>> hired >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the >>>>>>> kinds >>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Milan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > >
