On 03/03/2020 18:50, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 2020 at 05:52:10PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote: >> >> Thanks for doing that >> >> Here are some observations: >> >> - the original email was sent to my pocock.com.au address and so my mail >> client replied to all mails using that address, I didn't notice until >> now. That address is not subscribed. >> >> - my other address, pocock.pro, is subscribed >> >> - the list didn't give me any bounces or alerts that messages were held. >> At least some lists give warnings when a mail is sent from an address >> that is not subscribed > > Odd. I see the list replying back with a bounce: > > Mar 3 09:10:32 mailman01.phx2.fedoraproject.org postfix/smtp[5786]: 5C39C5D35D048: to=<daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, relay=bast > ion.phx2.fedoraproject.org[10.5.126.12]:25, delay=0.15, delays=0.01/0/0.03/0.11, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: qu > eued as 655CF601EA0C) > Mar 3 09:10:32 mailman01.phx2.fedoraproject.org postfix/qmgr[7288]: 5C39C5D35D048: removed > Mar 3 09:10:34 bastion01.phx2.fedoraproject.org postfix/smtp[13250]: 655CF601EA0C: to=<daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, relay=mail > .trendhosting.net[195.8.117.5]:25, delay=2.4, delays=0.1/0/1.3/0.95, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 0E2A > 0150D5) > Thanks for clarifying that - I found those bounces, but here is what I notice: - they are not being threaded, so I didn't see them in the folder until I looked for them - their subject line isn't changed to look like a bounce, so they didn't catch my eye On a more quiet list these probably would have been noticed earlier but I think that for a busy list, they need to be more visible, e.g. by putting them in the thread AND putting some prefix on the subject. Here is what I see: From: devel-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Non-responsive maintainer: pocock >> >> - the last message sent from the pocock.pro address was on 19 August, it >> was delivered to the list but only with a delay of 9 minutes >> >> - the message prior to that was delayed by 20 hours inside Fedora: >> >> Received: from mailman01.phx2.fedoraproject.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) >> by mailman01.phx2.fedoraproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE3858968E1E; >> Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:43:36 +0000 (UTC) >> Received: by mailman01.phx2.fedoraproject.org (Postfix, from userid 991) >> id DCFA658968E12; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 18:25:21 +0000 (UTC) > > From my notes, that was a time when gmail was blocking several folks who > were asking for 'all fedmsgs as emails please'. ie, I see in irc at the > time I said: > Aug 02 08:50:38 <nirik> cool... 183,000 emails in bastion01's mail queue. wheeee. > > So, it took a while for them to process, your email wasn't blocked by > any moderator. > >> Combined with the blog censorship and other things going on in various >> places, this type of observation is not very motivating but I do >> understand things sometimes go wrong for technical reasons. > > Do note that censorship means a gov entity blocking your right to free > speach. The Fedora Project is not a government. We reserve the right to This particular point has been argued about elsewhere. While I don't agree with your perspective, I don't feel the distinction is relevant anyway because... > tell people they shouldn't use our platform for their speach. In > particular when it's not related to our mission. > > That said, if you have questions about that, feel free to file a council > ticket/mail the council for clarification. > ... the bigger problem is simply confusion and confidence. Whether Fedora is a Government or not, and Fedora is certainly more influential than some micro-nations[1], disappearing messages and disappearing blogs can create confusion. I finished my email with the disclaimer that things can go wrong for technical reasons but some people aren't so open minded. Problems have been spilling over between communities in the last couple of years and I've been shown emails demonstrating that the leaders of two independent organizations decided to share information about who to moderate/censor. The experience I had with Planet Fedora also contributed to a greater sense of suspicion, in other words, more confusion, less effort made to hunt for the bounces. That is time wasted for both of us. As a developer, I started writing a script (it is not public yet) to scan Received headers and let me know when other developers or my own messages experience trouble. Think of it like the canary in the coal mine. The canary has already been BBQed[2] several times over in FSF. Think about the feeling you get when you write a detailed bug report and somebody closes it too quickly or you submit a patch and it is rejected without any discussion. Many developers simply lose confidence if they feel their work is not even being looked at and they walk away without saying anything. This is not about being a Government or not, it is simply about ensuring people feel that writing an email, blog, bug report or patch is a worthy use of their time. Regards, Daniel 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations 2. https://danielpocock.com/what-does-fsf-censor/ _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
