On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 18:26, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 11:38, Clement Verna <cverna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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>
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> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 16:18, Pierre-Yves Chibon <pingou@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> these heroics related to pagure?
>>
>> If not, I'm not sure what is the point you were trying to make for this thread.
>
>
> My point is that we have to dedicate a team to work on Pagure, I would rather have these people working on improving the infrastructure so that we don't need these heroics to happen. If we don't put people to work on Pagure it will end up being another fedora-packages, badges or FAS and in couple years it will be too difficult to do anything with it. It is not only about Pagure, for example I would love to be able to replace Bodhi with something that we don't have to maintain but it is much more difficult to find an alternative to Bodhi than Pagure.
>
We would instead need a dedicated team to work on integrating all our
tools with some other dist-git. Either using the people who are
already working on pagure, or some new set of people who have to be
hired in with a background in how-ever Git*** works. There will still
always be some group having to deal with how and what we do with our
source code. All we are doing is changing it from something we have
more control to direct to something we constantly adapt to its
changes. In other words, the heroics just change because we have
worked on a symptom for the cause of the heroics.. not the root cause
of the heroics.
I completely agree that changing solution would be a massive effort and I honestly don't know if it is worth it or not. In my opinion the root cause of the heroics is that we keep adding and building new things on top of foundation that is not stable. One of the reason for this foundation not been stable is that we have too much to do, so we cut corners (the famous quick fixes which becomes a permanent hack that everyone is scared to touch). We cannot win this battle without reducing the number of things we have to care for. Maybe I am too naive but for me the only way to reduce these heroics is first to reduce the number of applications we have, second take the time it takes to reduce the technical debt we have.
You have way more history and knowledge than me, so I am genuinely interested to know what are the root cause for you ? And what would it take to improve the situation ?
> My general feeling is that an infrastructure team should avoid as much as possible to maintain large applications, the focus should be to develop the glue needed to for the different services to work together in the most efficient manner, to monitor the applications, the respond to outages.
The issue is that we are not going to see less work here and so there
is not going to be less heroics. Some group is going to have to make
tooling changes to make fedpkg, bodhi, koji, pdc, authentication etc
etc work with Git*** and keep up with every API change that occurs
over the years there.
This assumes that Pagure will never break its API compatibility and that we will never have to update all the different tools in that case. For me the effort is the same here maybe even less for Git*** since we would most likely use an library wrapping the API which could deal with the backward compatibility.
Some group is going to have to engineer new
caching layers to deal with source code in XYZ area and builders in
ABC area. Some group is going to have to add in all the documentation
and rules for dealing with any outage/burp/authentication Git***.
This doesn't mean that work should not be done.. but do not try to
sell it that it will drop the need for heroics and long hours. That
needs different changes and have nothing to do whether we have our
source code in Pagure or Gitlab. It has nothing to do with whether we
use OBS or Koji. It has to do with things much more fundamental about
what we are supposed to be doing, what we are supposed to not be
doing, and how much we are supposed to do towards either set. Trying
to lop off things one by one while we are adding in things 2x2 doesn't
help.
I agree that this will probably not make a huge difference, but I am an optimistic and I prefer to take one tiny step in one direction without knowing if it will make a difference rather than stay still waiting for selling to fall on my head. "When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time.” - Creighton Abrams
What are the different changes needed to avoid heroics ? What stops us from making these ?
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
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