On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Rex Dieter <rdieter@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Neal Gompa wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Matthew Miller >> <mattdm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 08:25:22AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: >>>> This is a stupid idea because it introduces "magic" into picking the >>>> type of thing installed. It also goes against how we typically do >>> >>> Neal, this idea is the idea of other Fedora contributors who have put a >>> lot of thought into it. Please refrain from childish language like >>> "stupid". I'm not saying that this is "offensive" or anything, but I >>> hope for a higher level of discourse in Fedora. There's no need for >>> insults. You have a technical argument; please stick to that. >>> >> >> I've already turned down my feelings about it several notches. But at >> least you noticed what I said by the words I chose. That's was the >> whole point. >> >> I'm going to be blunt about how I feel about it and present my >> technical argument. Being purely technical tends to lead to being >> ignored. You noticed because I didn't do that. > > I agree with Matthew on this one. You got noticed, yes, but for *very* much > the wrong reasons... which may backfire in the long run: your non- > inflamatory/technical feedback will indeed have higher risk of not being > considered seriously. > I'm extremely frustrated by how much half-baked-ness has been going on in the last couple of months. Schedule shrinkage, features getting cut, this modularity thing being implemented in a way that's looking increasingly impossible to bypass while everyone I've talked to seems to indicate that all of this is prototypical and likely to be completely reworked again (which has already happened at least once now, apparently), and to top it all off, the Pagure over Dist-Git thing has been driving me bonkers for the last few weeks. I also now get complaints from people that they can't figure out what Fedora actually has in the distribution anymore because we don't have PackageDB. Who thought it was a good idea to not have a way for people to figure out who maintains what and what is in the distribution? The package search application is broken and still not updating, too. Not to mention, after trying the Boltron server, I'm extremely disappointed in how it behaves. There's no obvious way to determine whether I'm requesting a module or a package, and the *additional* metadata that uses *yet another parser* means that we're back to Yum 2 levels of slowness with even more complexity than there was before. Look, I don't care if you want to do your modules in TOML, YAML, JSON, or whatever. But it's a complexity and security risk if have to deal with multiple types of repository metadata parsers. It makes independent tool handling of the metadata harder, it makes implementing repository management harder, and it makes things really difficult for build systems and other tools that have to resolve things. You make my job harder as a packager, my job harder as a developer, my job harder as a systems administrator, and my job harder as a user. All of this to simply avoid just setting up packages to be parallel installable. In most stacks, this is already the default. For example, Python, Ruby, Java, etc already do this, we just don't really leverage it. Other stacks (like PHP, Perl, etc.) can be set up that way relatively easily. You talk of independent life cycles, but aside from leaf desktop applications, it's not practical or realistic. Cutting things around all over the place clearly speaks towards some kind of RHEL thing where they don't like the organic growth of the dependency chain. That's fine, it's their distribution and they can shut off features there that are available in Fedora. But the wounds inflicted by creating these "modules" that add more special metadata, require custom depsolving, and so on just make no sense. Insofar as the custom depsolving, it reads to me like something where we want to avoid having our build system be able to automate a lot of the hellish things we do now (like the ImageMagick bump going on right now). Instead, these weird modules rebuild everything again and again. I'm not really going to get into this more, because clearly no one cares as I've attempted to bring this up before in other threads with crickets responding. So, what's the use? And the Flatpak stuff (since Owen did bring that up earlier in the thread) also is strange, because it effectively doubles or triples the maintenance work of software. And Flatpak still has no reproducibility mechanisms, which makes it hard to do secure software delivery. But at least Flatpak operates on an independent space, and doesn't actually change too much of how the regular distribution is built. So it has somewhat of a pass from me. If I wasn't a long-time Fedora user and contributor who actually knew his stuff and knows how to navigate around all the messes, I'd probably have left by now because it feels like everything is on fire, and not in a good way. In your own little worlds, everything might seem like it's fine, but out here in the outer rings, closer to nexus of the intersection of the regular world with the Fedora worlds, it looks like Fedora is getting a severe case of DID again. The messaging is wrong, the implementation doesn't make sense, and there isn't actually a problem to solve that you aren't creating for yourselves already. *Throws hands up in the air* -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
