Re: Fedora on Macs, removing the release criterion

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On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 2016-11-14 22:26 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> 2016-11-14 14:01 GMT+01:00 Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh@xxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>> On 11/13/2016 01:46 PM, Ms Sanchez wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/11/16 14:33, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to address this specifically, I am referring to Apple's penchant for
>>>>>> stuffing their machines with hardware from vendors that don't play well with
>>>>>> open-source (for example, switching to wifi-only devices and shipping Broadcom
>>>>>> chipsets with no open-source drivers). Then also playing games with their
>>>>>> bootloader system so that we have to go through lots of hoops to trick it into
>>>>>> letting us install.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple's entire business model is predicated on the idea that they know best and
>>>>>> you should only ever run software on their devices that they have provided to
>>>>>> you... at a substantial percentage for themselves. They do whatever they can at
>>>>>> a technical level to enable this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Note: I'm not attempting to vilify Apple here. Their devices are usually
>>>>>> sturdy, well-constructed and certainly attractive. They are however a company
>>>>>> trying to make money and they have a certain business model that is largely
>>>>>> dependent on *not* enabling us.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple's business model is based on selling you a golden cage.  They are entitled
>>>>> to do that and we are entitled to dislike it.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly. My point is that I don't feel that we are necessarily responsible for
>>>> working around their antagonism either. Yes, it would be nice if Fedora
>>>> supported all hardware ever made. But the simple truth is that Apple tries very
>>>> hard to make it *not* work. They have a vested interest in that.
>>>>
>>>> So I assert that while support for Apple hardware is desirable, I don't believe
>>>> that the lack of it should prevent us from shipping Fedora for all the other
>>>> hardware that we do support.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you stop supporting certain hardware right before release due to a
>>> regression bug you set a very troublesome precedent. It not only means
>>> that the work people did developing and testing the features where
>>> wasted, it also means that Fedora can toss out any feature at any time
>>> if there is a bug. And that is not a very stable OS to use and
>>> contribute to.
>>
>> If the features were developed and tested during the creation of the
>> release, why would they fail criteria at the last minute?  You are
>> making a good argument to not throw away something because "people
>> don't like it", but in the context of this discussion there seems to
>> be a distinct lack of resources actually doing the work.  It may be
>> perfectly justifiable to do a release anyway under that premise.
>>
>
> AFAIK, you have been able to install Fedora on Intel Macs since 2008
> (that was when I first tried). To not be able to install Fedora on
> (Intel) Macs is a regression.

Yes.  Nobody is arguing that it isn't a bug.

>> Also, there is a large difference between shipping a release that
>> works on a majority of hardware with the goal of fixing it where it
>> doesn't after, and "stop supporting certain hardware".
>>
>
> How do you fix it if you can't install the release? Do you make a new
> release with all the testing again (to make sure you do not have other
> regression bugs)?

Anaconda has updates.img, which might be usable post-release.  Barring
that, there are the update respins that other community members do.
Pretending those don't exist seems silly.

>> Lastly, support is a very loaded word, particularly in the context of
>> a community driven project.  We actually do not have an x86 equivalent
>> of the ARM supported-boards list, so it's completely random as to what
>> laptops and desktops are tested and prioritized.  That might be
>> something to focus on going forward.
>
> It has been in the release critera that you should be able to install
> on macs and it has worked for a very long time. If you are going to
> remove that support you should really let people know in advance (not
> a week before release).

Again, nobody is saying "remove support".  We're saying "fix it later".

> Also, most hardware support is handled by Linux which has a much
> bigger community than Fedora. But this issue seems to be in Anaconda
> which is only used by Fedora (and derivatives?). Other OS installers
> does not seem to have this problem (AFAIK).

OK?

josh
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