On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > 2016-11-14 22:26 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> 2016-11-14 14:01 GMT+01:00 Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>>> On 11/13/2016 01:46 PM, Ms Sanchez wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/11/16 14:33, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to address this specifically, I am referring to Apple's penchant for >>>>>> stuffing their machines with hardware from vendors that don't play well with >>>>>> open-source (for example, switching to wifi-only devices and shipping Broadcom >>>>>> chipsets with no open-source drivers). Then also playing games with their >>>>>> bootloader system so that we have to go through lots of hoops to trick it into >>>>>> letting us install. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple's entire business model is predicated on the idea that they know best and >>>>>> you should only ever run software on their devices that they have provided to >>>>>> you... at a substantial percentage for themselves. They do whatever they can at >>>>>> a technical level to enable this. >>>>>> >>>>>> (Note: I'm not attempting to vilify Apple here. Their devices are usually >>>>>> sturdy, well-constructed and certainly attractive. They are however a company >>>>>> trying to make money and they have a certain business model that is largely >>>>>> dependent on *not* enabling us.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Apple's business model is based on selling you a golden cage. They are entitled >>>>> to do that and we are entitled to dislike it. >>>> >>>> Certainly. My point is that I don't feel that we are necessarily responsible for >>>> working around their antagonism either. Yes, it would be nice if Fedora >>>> supported all hardware ever made. But the simple truth is that Apple tries very >>>> hard to make it *not* work. They have a vested interest in that. >>>> >>>> So I assert that while support for Apple hardware is desirable, I don't believe >>>> that the lack of it should prevent us from shipping Fedora for all the other >>>> hardware that we do support. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> If you stop supporting certain hardware right before release due to a >>> regression bug you set a very troublesome precedent. It not only means >>> that the work people did developing and testing the features where >>> wasted, it also means that Fedora can toss out any feature at any time >>> if there is a bug. And that is not a very stable OS to use and >>> contribute to. >> >> If the features were developed and tested during the creation of the >> release, why would they fail criteria at the last minute? You are >> making a good argument to not throw away something because "people >> don't like it", but in the context of this discussion there seems to >> be a distinct lack of resources actually doing the work. It may be >> perfectly justifiable to do a release anyway under that premise. >> > > AFAIK, you have been able to install Fedora on Intel Macs since 2008 > (that was when I first tried). To not be able to install Fedora on > (Intel) Macs is a regression. Yes. Nobody is arguing that it isn't a bug. >> Also, there is a large difference between shipping a release that >> works on a majority of hardware with the goal of fixing it where it >> doesn't after, and "stop supporting certain hardware". >> > > How do you fix it if you can't install the release? Do you make a new > release with all the testing again (to make sure you do not have other > regression bugs)? Anaconda has updates.img, which might be usable post-release. Barring that, there are the update respins that other community members do. Pretending those don't exist seems silly. >> Lastly, support is a very loaded word, particularly in the context of >> a community driven project. We actually do not have an x86 equivalent >> of the ARM supported-boards list, so it's completely random as to what >> laptops and desktops are tested and prioritized. That might be >> something to focus on going forward. > > It has been in the release critera that you should be able to install > on macs and it has worked for a very long time. If you are going to > remove that support you should really let people know in advance (not > a week before release). Again, nobody is saying "remove support". We're saying "fix it later". > Also, most hardware support is handled by Linux which has a much > bigger community than Fedora. But this issue seems to be in Anaconda > which is only used by Fedora (and derivatives?). Other OS installers > does not seem to have this problem (AFAIK). OK? josh _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
