2016-11-15 13:45 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> 2016-11-14 22:26 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> 2016-11-14 14:01 GMT+01:00 Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>>>> On 11/13/2016 01:46 PM, Ms Sanchez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/16 14:33, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just to address this specifically, I am referring to Apple's penchant for >>>>>>> stuffing their machines with hardware from vendors that don't play well with >>>>>>> open-source (for example, switching to wifi-only devices and shipping Broadcom >>>>>>> chipsets with no open-source drivers). Then also playing games with their >>>>>>> bootloader system so that we have to go through lots of hoops to trick it into >>>>>>> letting us install. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apple's entire business model is predicated on the idea that they know best and >>>>>>> you should only ever run software on their devices that they have provided to >>>>>>> you... at a substantial percentage for themselves. They do whatever they can at >>>>>>> a technical level to enable this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Note: I'm not attempting to vilify Apple here. Their devices are usually >>>>>>> sturdy, well-constructed and certainly attractive. They are however a company >>>>>>> trying to make money and they have a certain business model that is largely >>>>>>> dependent on *not* enabling us.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple's business model is based on selling you a golden cage. They are entitled >>>>>> to do that and we are entitled to dislike it. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly. My point is that I don't feel that we are necessarily responsible for >>>>> working around their antagonism either. Yes, it would be nice if Fedora >>>>> supported all hardware ever made. But the simple truth is that Apple tries very >>>>> hard to make it *not* work. They have a vested interest in that. >>>>> >>>>> So I assert that while support for Apple hardware is desirable, I don't believe >>>>> that the lack of it should prevent us from shipping Fedora for all the other >>>>> hardware that we do support. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you stop supporting certain hardware right before release due to a >>>> regression bug you set a very troublesome precedent. It not only means >>>> that the work people did developing and testing the features where >>>> wasted, it also means that Fedora can toss out any feature at any time >>>> if there is a bug. And that is not a very stable OS to use and >>>> contribute to. >>> >>> If the features were developed and tested during the creation of the >>> release, why would they fail criteria at the last minute? You are >>> making a good argument to not throw away something because "people >>> don't like it", but in the context of this discussion there seems to >>> be a distinct lack of resources actually doing the work. It may be >>> perfectly justifiable to do a release anyway under that premise. >>> >> >> AFAIK, you have been able to install Fedora on Intel Macs since 2008 >> (that was when I first tried). To not be able to install Fedora on >> (Intel) Macs is a regression. > > Yes. Nobody is arguing that it isn't a bug. > >>> Also, there is a large difference between shipping a release that >>> works on a majority of hardware with the goal of fixing it where it >>> doesn't after, and "stop supporting certain hardware". >>> >> >> How do you fix it if you can't install the release? Do you make a new >> release with all the testing again (to make sure you do not have other >> regression bugs)? > > Anaconda has updates.img, which might be usable post-release. Barring > that, there are the update respins that other community members do. > Pretending those don't exist seems silly. > >>> Lastly, support is a very loaded word, particularly in the context of >>> a community driven project. We actually do not have an x86 equivalent >>> of the ARM supported-boards list, so it's completely random as to what >>> laptops and desktops are tested and prioritized. That might be >>> something to focus on going forward. >> >> It has been in the release critera that you should be able to install >> on macs and it has worked for a very long time. If you are going to >> remove that support you should really let people know in advance (not >> a week before release). > > Again, nobody is saying "remove support". We're saying "fix it later". > How do you "fix it later"? Would that be a new image? >> Also, most hardware support is handled by Linux which has a much >> bigger community than Fedora. But this issue seems to be in Anaconda >> which is only used by Fedora (and derivatives?). Other OS installers >> does not seem to have this problem (AFAIK). > > OK? > > josh > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
