On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 20:45 +0200, drago01 wrote: > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 14:21 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > >> On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 09:00 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > >> > On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 20:26 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > >> > > On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 16:10 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > >> > > > On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 10:25 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > >> > > > > On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 14:12 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> > > > > > > I don't really like that people that do upgrades get a worse > >> > > > > > > experience because of that pointless change but well ... > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > There's nothing that says a user doing an upgrade wants to upgrade to > >> > > > > > Workstation. There's also nothing that is going to magically upgrade > >> > > > > > them to Workstation anyway. Also, they don't have this in F20 so > >> > > > > > their experience is not worse, it's the same. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think fedup needs to to require specification of the product when > >> > > > > upgrading from Fedora 20: > >> > > > > [...] > >> > > > > >> > > > I've been trying to work with the packaging folks and the fedup > >> > > > maintainer, but right now it's looking infeasible to do a > >> > > > non-productized (F20) upgrade to a Productized F21. People who want > >> > > > Workstation are going to have to do a clean install. People upgrading > >> > > > from F20 will end up with non-productized F21 (equivalent > >> > > > to a Spin). > >> > > > >> > > In the Fedora Workstation PRD we have: > >> > > > >> > > Robust Upgrades > >> > > > >> > > Upgrading the system multiple times through the upgrade process should > >> > > give a result that is the same as an original install of Fedora > >> > > Workstation. Upgrade should be a safe and process that never leaves the > >> > > system needing manual intervention. > >> > > > >> > > This refers, of course, to upgrades between versions of Fedora > >> > > Workstation, but I think we're sending a strong message in the wrong > >> > > direction if we make it require a complex manual procedure to upgrade > >> > > from F20 to F21 Workstation. > >> > > > >> > > >> > Well, the procedure isn't necessarily *complex*, but it *is* necessarily > >> > manual. Please see my email on devel@, I talked about the actual > >> > technical issues that are getting in the way here (and the fact that > >> > we're dangerously close to Beta for trying to land entirely new code in > >> > fedup...) > >> > >> There's three separate things here: > >> > >> * We need to make it almost impossible to *accidentally* upgrade to > >> non-productized F21 and think you are getting the Workstation > >> experience. > >> > > > > I think this is the wrong way of thinking about this. As noted elsewhere > > in this or the other thread, we *cannot* make the assumption that > > someone upgrading from F20 actually *wants* it to be Fedora Workstation, > > even if they happen to have the GNOME desktop installed. > > > > There are plenty of people who are using a system installed from one of > > the spins as well as people who are using Fedora as a server (possibly > > headless) and having the upgrade process result in Workstation except > > when *explicitly* chosen is not acceptable. > > > > > >> * We need to provide a feasible way to upgrade from F20 > >> Fedora 21 Workstation. > >> > > > > I would certainly be in favor of having this. The definition of > > "feasible" is very complicated, though. This can be solved, but it's > > debatable if it can be solved sensibly in the remaining time. (See the > > explanations in the other thread). > > Why from the chatlog you attached elsewhere one would conclude that > the "yum install fedora-relase-foo && fedup" would work. Or what did I > miss? You missed the part where that approach takes away the no-manual-steps part of it. If we go that path, then you MUST explicitly do 'yum install fedora-release-[standard|workstation|cloud|server]' before you can run fedup. If people feel that this is an acceptable approach, we can investigate it, but the general sense I was getting is that "fedup --network 21" should work on its own with no other interaction. If we can relax that requirement, this is a viable approach.
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