On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 10:26 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
> On 09/24/2011 07:46 AM, Craig White wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here.
> > The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account
> > for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of
> > Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to
> > satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very
> > large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy
> > the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch
> > input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage
> > embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
>
>
> Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make
> laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
----
This is a subjective judgment at best since I have seen postings from
people who believe that it is a very good desktop implementation. What
we know is that it is not quite finished at this point.
----
> >
> > You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but
> > essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of
> > GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
>
> Problem with argument by analogy is that it often makes little sense.
>
> Every car you buy still has wheels just as the very first ones did
> (support for keyboard) .. and they all have a steering wheel (a mouse)
> ... and they all have an engine and a speedometer ... what has happened
> to cars is largely additions and automation to make things easier
> (headlamps that track steering - they wisely did not remove headlamps) -
> switch to LED lights (not remove lights) ... add auto-back-off cruise
> control for collision avoidance (not force mouse to move to top left)
> ... etc ect
----
The octane in today's gasoline is not sufficient for the high
compression engines from that era. Then there's fuel injection, emission
requirements and many technological advances that really make an old car
unfeasible at this point... that was the point I was trying to make with
the analogy. It didn't seem to be all that complicated but if it doesn't
make any sense to you please ignore it as a distraction.
----
> Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet
> i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I
> have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use
> different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use
> boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
----
no one is forcing you to do anything and I suspect that touch screens
will become prominent for desktop use in the near future. They've always
been available but very little software actually made sense of them,
thus there's been nothing to drive sales (save for maybe the Wacom
Cintiq).
As for a multi-core server... I don't generally have a monitor on them
anyway, at least nothing 'dedicated' and more likely a multi-port KVM to
share the keyboard, screen & mouse but I think this is clearly not the
market that GNOME targets anyway.
----
> I would take your point really to mean we should offer a phone/tablet
> spin as well as a lap/desk top spin. The default spin ... I have no view
> ... however only having a phone spin for fedora is silly.
>
> Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my
> suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or
> XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
>
> Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of
> tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
----
The reality is that GNOME is a project that develops software for their
own purposes. A distribution such as Fedora has entirely separate
objectives and packages the bits and pieces that makes sense for it's
target audience.
There are a lot of uses for Linux that have nothing to do with anything
resembling a Linux desktop. Fedora has an interest in some of them.
Ubuntu has an interest in some of them. There's not always intersection.
There are tablets, phones and many different types of devices that
employ Linux, possibly GNOME and it seems evident that the current trend
is that the laptop and desktop computers of all OS varieties are giving
up a growing piece of their installed user base to tablets.
----
> Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ...
----
GNOME 3 like Macintosh OS X 'Lion' and Windows 8 consider the form
factor as an alternative form factor for a computer. If you have don't
have an interest in a tablet at this point, fine. There were still
people who believed the earth was flat after Columbus returned to Spain
too.
----
> > Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes
> > it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who
> > just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using
> > Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term
> > non-change by intent.
>
>
> One must use the right tool for the job - the "latest" here is the
> phone spin - doesn't mean we should switch that for all devices ... lets
> not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a
> call ... are you? :-)
----
actually - if I dispense with the absurdity of your premise and consider
that the technologies are approaching convergence, possibly but not if
the wireless companies continue to maintain complete control over the
technology. The flat earth people apparently don't want to believe that
the telephone in my pocket with an 854x480 screen is actually a computer
and yes, someday I just might want to be able to run Fedora or Ubuntu on
it.
Craig
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