On 22/05/13 19:22, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
On 05/22/2013 05:41 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 17:12:58 +0000,
"\"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson\"" <johannbg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 05/22/2013 04:31 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The problem Harald isn't noise. It is his being very rude to people
frequently.
One mans heaven is another mans hell.
What I'm trying to say with this is that you might feel something is
rude and offensive while I for example do not and even if I would
think it would be rude I would still try to listen to what that
individual would say then try to figure the root cause for it and the
way to fix it but then again that's just how my mind works.
I think one can really state objectively that Harald is frequently
very rude to people in email messages. It is probably the case that
this rudeness bothers some people more than others. But just because
it doesn't bother some people, is not a reason to let this practice
continue.
Starting to filtering people based on other peoples feeling will
never lead to any good.
Harald's behavior is going to drive some people away from Fedora.
I dont think you can say that with any certainty until that left msg
because of him finds it's way to -devel and even then it becomes a
question if that truly is that root cause for that individual to make
him leave Fedora or something else or even how dedicated that
contributor that left might have been to Fedora in the first place.
We in QA probably have the biggest rotation of contributors in the
community in whole leaving few that survive a whole GA from starting of
development to EOL so it's really hard to measure who's dedicated and
who's not.
There is no need for Harald to be behaving like that. He needs to cut
the pointless insults (for example calling people stupid) and cut back
on the swearing. Less hyperbole would be nice as well, but that isn't
something I'd want to ban people over.
Agreed
And I personally would like us ( the community ) to avoid crossing over
and implementing the ban barrier and the point of no return in the process.
Our community is made up of people that look differently,act
differently are of different genders, are of different age and are
from all over the world which are all part of the same community for
different reason so where are you going to draw the line when you
start doing that?.
I am not sure where the exact line his, but Harald's behavior is
pretty clearly beyond it. It's not like he can't change to resolve the
issue.
Harald's behavior is not limited to Fedora he responds in the same
manner on other non Fedora mailing lists so this method of communication
of his, indicates it is not Fedora specific or targeted at Fedora ( all
thou there is a clear underlying frustration of how certain things have
been handled which to a sense is understandable since I do believe he
runs Fedora in his or the company he works for infrastructure which
might have affected him financially added additional workload on him
which can be traced to FESCO and it's member not thinking things
thoroughly through before ack/nack various proposals and or the feature
process ) like and it's users.
It's just how that individual communicates ( on mailing list anyway
never met him in person thus not capable of judging his character ).
JBG
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Quite frankly, if you are rude and insulting to others, who give their
time freely to report issues, or to make things better, then unless you
give constructive good polite criticism, with an idea for a potential
fix attached, then you do not deserve to be anywhere near a list.
We all give our time freely to make something better or to fix issues,
because that is how we pay back to a free product provided to us by the
whole community.
Calling somebody stupid, is neither helpful, nor constructive, and just
alienates your opinion, because others will think that in fact, you are
the idiot.
Same applies to people to who belittle other people in the process of
trying to help others with a problem. They are only trying to help
somebody in need, as good as they possibly can.
If this chap is like this across the board, even on non-Fedora mailing
lists, then quite frankly, he needs to realise that such behaviour will
not be tolerated. I should also add, that I used to live in Germany, and
Germans are quite direct, compared to many other European people,
especially us British, who are quite sensitive to being rude.
But direct personal attacks, and slagging off, is not acceptable in an
open forum, worst of all, apparently his posts are moderated, so he
sends insults in private, then people RE, which then ends up on the list.
So, if it takes a removal order, then make it temporarily. Let us say 3
months. If he then carries on, make it 6 months. And increase the ban
span, until he gets the message.
Constructive criticism has been around for a long time in the Fedora
community, but I have seen anyone call anyone stupid or an idiot.
Johann, I admire your desire to defend a potential victim of injustice,
but if you would know some of the people who complained, they have a
very well established, shrug it off attitude. But you can only push
something so far, before you really get irritated.
I just make once request though, that we make up procedures and document
them, so people can see why they were removed and for how long.
Warning people that, if their behaviour becomes a problem, they will be
removed for temporary periods.
I am a great believer in carrot and stick, everyone deserves a second or
even third chance.
Regards,
Tristan
--
Tristan Santore BSc MBCS
TS4523-RIPE
Network and Infrastructure Operations
InterNexusConnect
Mobile +44-78-55069812
Tristan.Santore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Former Thawte Notary
(Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down,
and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
For Fedora related issues, please email me at:
TSantore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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