A little over a week ago I posted the following remark: "Changing focal length alone can definitely alter the relationship between objects as seen in your view finder. This will be readily apparent if you spend a moment with a zoom lens." I made the above remark because when sat in my computer room and racked a zoom lens forth and back, while observing thru the view finder of the camera it was mounted on, spacial relationships between me and between objects in the view finder changed. The walls in the corner seemed to move in my direction and a lamp in the corner appeared to move towards me while becoming closer to the corner. Note I did not claim the walls or lamp actually moved nor did I mention perspective. A reply to my post appeared, differing with mine, and I answered with a suggestion of a simple exercise and almost simultaneously felt the pain of a kidney stone as it moved into a new and interesting location in my right kidney. For those of you who have not experienced this life event I can only say a kidney stone is about as much fun as a knife fight in a phone booth. The next six days are a little unclear but I have it on good authority the liberal (very liberal) amounts of percocet and thousands of repetitions of the kidney stoned litany ("this too shall pass") sufficed to win the day. All of which leads to, now, when I've just finished sorting, deleting, filing, and replying to almost 2000 accumulated E-mail posts. To get right to it, I'm sure most people know the gist of the replies to my statement above. With two exceptions I've seen it all before. The main thrust is that the only way to change apparent spacial relationships is to change the observers position. That there is no such thing as compression and it only happens at long distances. There is no such thing as expansion. That the wide/tel look doesn't exist and this is proved somehow by being able to duplicate it in the dark room. That a 17mm and 1000mm focal length lens on the same camera will produce exactly the same result except for a lot differences. I didn't see much about image viewing distance this time around but the uninformed should be advized the proper viewing distance is, focal length of the lens times magnification. I have seen this gem stated with the example that a 12X18-inch image from a 35mm negative taken with a 1000mm lens should be viewed from a distance of... thats right, 20 feet!! One new "proof" there is no compression or expansion or change in spacial relationship via focal length, involves looking thru a rectangle in a card and noticing that if it is moved back and forth there is no change in magnification. Frankly I've noticed this lack of magnification when not looking thru a telescope, before. In fact it is just this lack of magnification that, many times, prompts me to change focal length. The other new "proof" appears to be based on the concept that a pinhole lens has no focal length. This ignores the fact the formula for finding the focal length for a given pinhole is diameter of pinhole times itself times 750 so the FL of a .4mm pinhole is 120mm. I also remember a power zoom pinhole assembly offered for sale to the spy types. What does this prove? Beats me. I didn't bring pinholes into the discussion but I bet I can get pinhole images that show a wide angle or telephoto look. None of the above "proofs" disprove what I have observed while watching Hundreds of NASCAR races and Sunday afternoon football games on TV. Every tel shot of the fifty yard line from the end zone camera shows magnification and compression. Every shot from the camera inside the 200 mph race cars show expansion and WA distortion. For an example of telephoto compression look at: http://www.netSnapShot.com/pcw/b?KEY=0&ACCOUNT=12042 The frame on the right was taken first at about 400mm and the frame on the left, within a few seconds, was taken at about 200mm. Note I did not move. The dog did not move. the window and blinds did not move. And last but not least the car about forty yards away did not move. Only the focal length changed!! For a good example of W/A expansion refer back to Robs excellent shot of the kids on a hockey rink. That rink looks about twice as long as it really is. By the way Rob, warping the wall on the right, straight, seems to improve the shot a bit by removing the keystone distortion. The leaning wall is accented because it is so close to the edge of the frame. For some pinhole W/A expansion take a look at: http://mrpinhole.no-ip.org/harley.php?PHPSESSID=d8f6ad1dbb40cf29f0f8b32c3c53 ca72 This shows just how sharp a pinhole shot can be if it is exposed at the proper focal length for the size of the pinhole. When you move a pinhole back and forth you are NOT changing the focal length, you are just moving it in and out of focus. When you look thru a card with a rectangle cut in while moving it back and forth you are NOT changing the focal length of your eye, you are just blocking out the field of view. There is no more magnification in a hole in a card then there is in a window. There is no compression without magnification and there is no magnification with out compression. Dave East Englewood -------------------------- Every lens has a "normal" format and every format has a "normal" lens.