On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:56:45AM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 1:24 PM Laurent Pinchart wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 05:40:50PM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 3:11 PM Laurent Pinchart wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 10:02:27AM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 9:44 PM Laurent Pinchart wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 04:20:35PM +0300, Leon Romanovsky wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 03:02:13PM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:23 PM Leon Romanovsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:26:38AM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:02 PM Laurent Pinchart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be great to define what are the free software communities > > > > > > > > > > here. Distros and final users are also "free software communities" and > > > > > > > > > > they do not care about niche use cases covered by proprietary > > > > > > > > > > software. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you certain about that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a user, and as an open source Distro developer I have a small hint. > > > > > > > > But you could also ask users what they think about not being able to > > > > > > > > use their notebook's cameras. The last time that I could not use some > > > > > > > > basic hardware from a notebook with Linux was 20 years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lucky you, I still have consumer hardware (speaker) that doesn't work > > > > > > > with Linux, and even now, there is basic hardware in my current > > > > > > > laptop (HP docking station) that doesn't work reliably in Linux. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They only care (and should care) about normal workflows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a normal workflow? > > > > > > > > > Does it mean that if user bought something very expensive he > > > > > > > > > should not be able to use it with free software, because his > > > > > > > > > usage is different from yours? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It means that we should not block the standard usage for 99% of the > > > > > > > > population just because 1% of the users cannot do something fancy with > > > > > > > > their device. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, the problem is that in some areas the statistics slightly different. > > > > > > > 99% population is blocked because 1% of the users don't need it and > > > > > > > don't think that it is "normal" flow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give you an example. When I buy a camera I want to be able to > > > > > > > > do Video Conferencing and take some static photos of documents. I do > > > > > > > > not care about: automatic makeup, AI generated background, unicorn > > > > > > > > filters, eyes recentering... But we need to give a way to vendors to > > > > > > > > implement those things closely, without the marketing differentiators, > > > > > > > > vendors have zero incentive to invest in Linux, and that affects all > > > > > > > > the population. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen these kind of examples being repeatedly given in discussions > > > > > > related to camera ISP support in Linux. They are very misleading. These > > > > > > are not the kind of features that are relevant for the device > > > > > > pass-through discussion these day. Those are high-level use cases > > > > > > implemented in userspace, and vendors can ship any closed-source > > > > > > binaries they want there. What I care about is the features exposed by > > > > > > the kernel to userspace API. > > > > > > > > > > The ISPs are gradually becoming programmable devices and they indeed > > > > > help during all of those examples. > > > > > > > > I'd like to see more technical information to substantiate this claim. > > > > So far what I've sometimes seen is ISPs that include programmable > > > > elements, but hiding those behind a firmware that exposes a fixed > > > > (configurable) pipeline. I've also heard of attempts to expose some of > > > > that programmability to the operating system, which were abandoned in > > > > the end due to lack usefulness. > > > > > > > > > Userspace needs to send/receive information from the ISP, and that is > > > > > exactly what vendors want to keep in the close. > > > > > > > > But that's exactly what we need to implement an open userspace ecosystem > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > Describing how they implement those algorithms is a patent minefield > > > > > and their differentiating factor. > > > > > > > > Those are also arguments I've heard many times before. The > > > > differentiating factor for cameras today is mostly in userspace ISP > > > > control algorithms, and nobody is telling vendors they need to open all > > > > that. > > > > > > I disagree. The differentiating factor is what the ISP is capable of > > > doing and how they do it. Otherwise we would not see new ISPs in the > > > market. > > > > Hardware certainly evolves, but it's far from being the main > > differentiating factor in the markets and use cases you're usually > > referring to. > > > > > If you define the arguments passed to an ISP you are defining the > > > algorithm, and that is a trade secret and/or a patent violation. > > > > Are you confusing ISP processing blocks, sometimes referred to as > > algorithms, and ISP control algorithms ? There is absolutely no way to > > do anything with an ISP, not even the bare minimum, if you don't know > > what parameters to pass to it. > > Any ISP released in the last few years has *hundreds of thousands* of > parameters. Could you substantiate that claim ? That doesn't match what I've seen (unless perhaps you count each entry in LSC tables or large tone mapping LUTs as separate parameters). > We only modify hundreds of parameters during runtime. Those are the > ones we need to be documented. > > If we enforce a "usable open camera stack", we will have the > documentation and the code needed to use the ISP. > > Asking vendors to document *ALL* the parameters means describing how > they have implemented the internals of the ISP camera algorithms. > > > > > When it comes to patents, we all know how software patents is a > > > > minefield, and hardware is also affected. I can't have much sympathy for > > > > this argument though, those patents mostly benefit the largest players > > > > in the market, and those are the ones who currently claim they can't > > > > open anything due to patents. > > > > > > Big players do not usually sue each other. The big problem is patent > > > trolls that "shoot at everything that moves". > > > > > > I dislike patents, but it is the world we have to live in. No vendor > > > is going to take our approach if they risk a multi million dollar > > > lawsuit. > > > > When was the last time anyone heard of big players pushing to reform the > > patent system ? At best there are initiatives such as OIN, which some > > large companies have supporting. It's still a workaround though. > > > > > > > > > > This challenge seems to be solved for GPUs. I am using my AMD GPU > > > > > > > > freely and my nephew can install the amdgpu-pro proprietary user space > > > > > > > > driver to play duke nukem (or whatever kids play now) at 2000 fps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are other other subsystems that allow vendor passthrough and > > > > > > > > their ecosystem has not collapsed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I completely agree with you on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can we have some general guidance of what is acceptable? Can we define > > > > > > > > together the "normal workflow" and focus on a *full* open source > > > > > > > > implementation of that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that is possible to define "normal workflow". Requirement > > > > > > > to have open-source counterpart to everything exposed through UAPI is a > > > > > > > valid one. I'm all for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my current opinion as well, as least when it comes to the kernel > > > > > > areas I mostly work with. -- Regards, Laurent Pinchart
