--On Wednesday, September 4, 2019 11:49 -0400 Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Kathleen, thanks for your comments and especially your efforts > to identify specific problem areas. I find those much more > constructive than attacks on "tone" or participants' > ages. > >> Perhaps others could make a point of forming relationships >> with newer participants as a way to help with this behavior >> to try to retain the good talent. > > I find myself wondering if the organization could do more to > foster such relationships and establish mentorships - though I > fear that the same kinds of prejudices we're seeing from > some leaders would affect those too. Keith, Part of the conclusions and actions that led to my note about my own behavior ended up with me in a place very similar to the one Kathleen described for herself. The solution to many of these problems involves individuals picking out relative-newcomer individuals who show promise, seem exceptionally confused but sincere, or both and stepping in and helping them. That can be done individually, without any additional organizational structure or plans to "foster relationships", and perhaps even instead of spending large amounts of time on the IETF list bemoaning our lot or trying to make plans. I don't have data, but my completely anecdotal observations, including some answers to questions I've asked people I've stepped in to help, is that our various formal efforts to educate and integrate newcomers (including newcomers tutorials, quick connections sessions, the meet and greet, etc.) are not particularly successful. I'm not suggesting they are not useful or should be discontinued, but several of the people I've worked with have been down that path and still need help with things that path should, IMO, have covered and helped with. So, concern about prejudices aside and the possibility of putting more structure around (or "fostering") these efforts notwithstanding, I suggest that the thing we know has been successful (I can remember when you arrived in the IETF as a newcomer) is those one-on-one efforts. So let me suggest that, rather than keeping this long thread going, each of us who is genuinely concerned about newcomers and younger participants watch whatever list we normally watch, try to detect people who are new, confused, and/or need help, and reach out to them in private email and offer to help. Sometimes that help will be about navigating procedures, sometimes offering advice about how the IETF works, sometimes it will be about pointing them to the right people or WGs and performing virtual introductions, sometimes it may even involve helping them turn preliminary thoughts into a -00 I-D and walking them through the posting process. I've done all of those things. I assume Kathleen and others have too. But the key solution appears to be more of us, not putting the same energy into complaining or wishing that someone else would behave differently. The latter two may be worthwhile too, but it gets old quickly (at least in the sense that those who most need to listen tune out instead) and, unlike the one-on-one helping approach, there is little evidence of its producing useful results. best, john
