On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:03 PM Kyle Rose <krose@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:43 PM Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:While I certainly recognize the value in bringing new people in (of any
age) and also realize the value in training new generations of Internet
protocol engineers, I strongly object to favoring people because of
their age or lack thereof. I certainly don't think it should happen on
a per group basis. Age discrimination is as evil as any other form of
discrimination.
Strongly agreed. I'll add that:* New ideas nearly always benefit from some consideration paid to past experience in similar problem spaces.* Has the OP even seen the IAB or the IESG? They don't exactly look like a bunch of greybeards to me.* Those with time, energy, passion, expertise, and leadership skills will naturally rise to the top in an organization like this. The IETF is probably the closest thing to a meritocracy in which I've ever participated. If there's a problem with lack of diversity, it's in the pool of people from which the leadership is drawn.* We should (and AFAICT do) encourage folks to get involved if they can usefully contribute, regardless of age, ethnicity, race, citizenship, etc. We host meetings around the globe (often in places that are expensive and/or extremely inconvenient for the people who do the actual work, I might add) partly to assist in outreach to potential new participants. Regardless, we alone can contribute only modestly to addressing the cultural factors that limit participation by certain demographics, and here I think we do a reasonable job.
I agree with Kyle's points and will add some recent observations.
I have been mentoring a few new to the IETF participants informally, helping them to wade through IETF behaviors and responses. I am pretty sure if I wasn't helping, they would have left by now. Luckily, they haven't as they are very good technically and bring a different perspective. Preconceived notions of what they may support have painful to negotiate, even on arguments that have long been won and the IETF has official documented stances on. This totally confuses me.... take these as done and assume the position stands, even plainly state them without smugness, and don't beat good people down.
I've seen rude messages sent directly to them that are dismissive. In some cases, I think it's more the person sending this message does not have insight into the area of work and assume the area of work doesn't matter. Tech evolves and IETF participation changes over time with these new work areas. This needs to be embraced.
Perhaps others could make a point of forming relationships with newer participants as a way to help with this behavior to try to retain the good talent.
We should also be pointing out to those who are less than polite to think more about what they send.
Best regards,
Kathleen
Kyle
Best regards,
Kathleen
