from my pov, this discussion repeatedly descends to details of contracts, process arcana, and other symptoms of the corporitization of the ietf; while what we have done in reality is turn one of the mcentral and most respected pillars of our culture into crass work for hire which a person of talent and integrity would decline. and one did. the rfc++ bof, though it started in secret, at least came out in the open in time to be discussed by the community and stopped. the current mess, which smells of a redux, stayed secret until there are only dead bodies, beyond resuscitation. so all we have left is trying to fix the process; when what we really need is stewardship, integrity, and a real sense that we are here for what used to be a shared vision of the internet. randy
