Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle

[DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA <diego.r.lopez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

For quite a while I have been asking whoever was willing to pay attention whether the good-ole e2e principle is no longer applicable, and we should start to formulate something like a c2c (where c would stand for “cloud”) or similar principle, and think about how to preserve the desired properties of Internet communication in its context.

Be goode,

On 17 Mar 2016, at 11:19 , Varma, Eve (Nokia - US) <eve.varma@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi,

This brings to mind the Aug. 2000 paper, "Rethinking the design of the Internet: The end to end arguments vs. the brave new world" (D. D. Clark, M. Blumenthal).

Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of EXT Stefan Winter
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:12 AM
To: Josh Howlett; ietf@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle

Hi,

But the fact that these solutions exist points to a need unmet by existing e2e approaches. Someone in IETF operations had presumably thought out their requirements when this service was procured. Embedding e2e within a solution that satisfies those same operational requirements sounds like a potential IETF WG charter in the making.

I'm sure that the situation as it is now is the result of planning; this solution satisfies a need.

For the IETF as an SDO, this should be a lesson learnt then: we keep developing protocols for an end-to-end world. The world out there is not end-to-end though. (*)

And then people in the IETF wonder why the IETF is becoming more and more irrelevant to the world out there.

It might be time to admit that end-to-end is not the one noble thing to aspire to; but instead to accept deployed reality and develop protocols which are of relevance in the presence of proxies, load-balancers, and more.

Is that a job for "just" a working group? I don't know; it more feels like a cross-cutting job for the entire organisation.

Greetings,

Stefan Winter

(*) Since we all love anecdotes: I remember a Minneapolis IETF when a bar BOF had the topic of "proxy threats" which aimed to create a document stating why proxies (be it web, RADIUS, ...) are evil and should be avoided. Fast forward to this discussion here, and I have to wonder when exactly I slipped into this parallel universe.

Josh.

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