Hi, This brings to mind the Aug. 2000 paper, "Rethinking the design of the Internet: The end to end arguments vs. the brave new world" (D. D. Clark, M. Blumenthal). Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of EXT Stefan Winter Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:12 AM To: Josh Howlett; ietf@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: ietf.org end-to-end principle Hi, > But the fact that these solutions exist points to a need unmet by existing e2e approaches. Someone in IETF operations had presumably thought out their requirements when this service was procured. Embedding e2e within a solution that satisfies those same operational requirements sounds like a potential IETF WG charter in the making. I'm sure that the situation as it is now is the result of planning; this solution satisfies a need. For the IETF as an SDO, this should be a lesson learnt then: we keep developing protocols for an end-to-end world. The world out there is not end-to-end though. (*) And then people in the IETF wonder why the IETF is becoming more and more irrelevant to the world out there. It might be time to admit that end-to-end is not the one noble thing to aspire to; but instead to accept deployed reality and develop protocols which are of relevance in the presence of proxies, load-balancers, and more. Is that a job for "just" a working group? I don't know; it more feels like a cross-cutting job for the entire organisation. Greetings, Stefan Winter (*) Since we all love anecdotes: I remember a Minneapolis IETF when a bar BOF had the topic of "proxy threats" which aimed to create a document stating why proxies (be it web, RADIUS, ...) are evil and should be avoided. Fast forward to this discussion here, and I have to wonder when exactly I slipped into this parallel universe. > > Josh. > > Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT No. GB 197 0632 86. Jisc’s registered office is: One Castlepark, Tower Hill, Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800. > > Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under company number 2881024, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle Park, Tower Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800. > -- Stefan WINTER Ingenieur de Recherche Fondation RESTENA - Réseau Téléinformatique de l'Education Nationale et de la Recherche 2, avenue de l'Université L-4365 Esch-sur-Alzette Tel: +352 424409 1 Fax: +352 422473 PGP key updated to 4096 Bit RSA - I will encrypt all mails if the recipient's key is known to me http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xC0DE6A358A39DC66