Re: 6tsch BoF

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Hi Ralph,
At 01:50 01-08-2013, Ralph Droms wrote:
Toward the end of the BoF, the chairs asked the question "1. Is this a topic that the IETF should address?" First, the chairs asked for a hum. From my vantage point (middle of the room), the hum was pretty close to equal, for/against. I reviewed the audio (http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf87/ietf87-bellevue-20130730-1520-pm2.mp3, starting about 1:22), and heard a slightly louder hum "for". The BoF chairs decided they needed more information than they could extract from the hum, so they asked for a show of hands. From the audio record, there were "a lot" for (which matches my recollection) and "a handful" against (my memory is that no hands showed against). There was a request to ask for a show of hands for "how many don't know". The question was asked, and the record shows "a dozen".

Switching from hums to votes is not a good idea.  The above could be because:

  (a) The question asked was incorrect.

  (b) The choices provided were incorrect.

So, there was apparently a complete change in the answer to the question based on humming versus voting. There may also have been some effect from asking, after the fact, for a show of hands for "don't know".

I'm really curious about the results, which indicate that, at least in this case, the response to the question is heavily dependent on the on the mode used to obtain the answers to the question (which we all know is possible). In particular, the effect of humming versus show of hands was pretty obvious. draft-resnick-on-consensus gives several reasons why humming is preferred over a show of hands. From this example, it seems to me to be worth considering whether a more honest and accurate result is obtained through humming rather than a show of hands.

Your message does not provide enough context. The simple explanation is that the vote was used to change the answer. Consensus is a process, i.e. there are steps which are carefully followed until everyone is okay with the choices which they are provided with. In case of doubt, hum.

The other question raised in my mind is why the initial result from the hum, which did not have a consensus either way, was not sufficient. "Roughly the same response" for/against the question would seem to me to be as valid a result as explicit consensus one way or the other, and the act of taking a show of hands to survey the appeared to treat the hum as irrelevant, rather than highly significant.

The first result was sufficient. A second try, whether it is a hum or a vote, creates an appearance that the decision-maker did not like the result and is trying to change it. A decision can be undermined by people conforming to what other people in the group think.

Regards,
-sm




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