John, I agree 100% with everything you said here, execpt for the part about "we don't get it". I don't think I need to go over again why Maastricht was chosen nor elaborate further on the surprises we encountered onsite, so let's just say that we will try to do better next time and move on. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@xxxxxxxxx URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Sunday, August 29, 2010 14:29 -0500 Mary Barnes > <mary.ietf.barnes@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > Joel, > > > > Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a > > wonderful job of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile > > environment for women. My guess is that you've never > > personally been in a situation where you've been on a train > >... > > Joel, > > While I've tried to avoid commenting on the general whining and > complaining, I fear that I have to side with Mary on this one. > While our weighting factors are different, I think it is the > obligation of the Secretariat and the IAOC's meetings committee > to find locations at which the people who contribute > significantly can have an efficient and productive meeting, with > a minimum of distractions from logistical, health, and safety > problems. While one can take the position that people who don't > find a meeting site appropriate should just not come, doing that > changes the profile of people who are invited to participate in > the IETF from "interested in the improvement of the Internet and > (we hope) technically competent and willing to do work" to > include "have sufficient free time to spend extra time traveling > relative to other cities in the same region, have no health > problems that make one location more attractive than another, > aren't women traveling alone or those whose dress is > distinctive, don't have problems with air of marginal quality or > special food requirements, etc." > > I think that change would be a considerable disadvantage to the > Internet and the IETF; YMMD. > > I don't expect the Secretariat/ IOAC to cater to everyone's > slightest whim and I actually do expect those with special needs > to be willing to exert some extra effort, but I also expect that > the Secretariat/IAOC efforts will extend to making attendance > plausible for as broad a range of active participants as > possible. I also expect that those efforts will go beyond > believing whatever the would-be host tells the meeting > committee. And I believe that, if the IAOC selects an > out-of-the-way location (for whatever reason) in which we can't > be together in a single hotel or small cluster of > closely-located hotels that are readily accessible from a hub > international airport, the IAOC and Secretariat thereby take on > extra responsibility for being sure that the right information > is available and accurate. That extra effort and expectation > is, IMO, simply part of the cost of such a meeting -- if the > cost of having the Secretariat, IAD, or IAOC do the > investigations is too high, then the IAOC needs to decide that > the site is too expensive. > > Sure, we can all do our own checking and trip planning, but I > think that, somehow, it is in the best interests of the IETF > that most of us spend whatever time we are willing to contribute > on substantive work, not trying, one at a time, to track down > logistical details (I recognize that some people have corporate > or organizational travel departments who can deal with those > issues, but think it would be a bad idea to further bias IETF > participate toward them). > > And I find the evidence, via the venue survey and the failure to > understand that Minneapolis and Maastricht are very different, > that the IAOC doesn't "get" any of this to be extremely > problematic relative to the future of the IETF. > > Again, YMMD. > > john > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf