Joel, Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a wonderful job of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile environment for women. My guess is that you've never personally been in a situation where you've been on a train late at nite and someone got overly friendly to the point of making you feel very uncomfortable. I guess since the crime rate in Maastricht is lower than other places, it should not have bothered me at all for someone to enquire about what hotel I was staying at and whether I was alone that nite. Fortunately, despite having been enroute for 24 hours, I still had the sense to say I had colleagues waiting for me at the hotel. And, fortunately, there was a cab dropping someone off since the train station was closed and there was no concept of a taxi queue, so I didn't have to walk to my hotel alone. As I said, I travel by myself alot and have never had that sort of problem when traveling to major cities since there are usually alot of other people around and I can just blend with the crowd. The reason I did not have this problem in San Francisco is because the majority of people I would have dinner with in the evening were staying in the same hotel. I stayed in the meeting hotel, as well, thus did not have to return to a hotel somewhere else in case of late meetings. There are also a plethora of travel guide books that let you know what areas are safest. The streets are also well populated at nite - the safety in numbers theory and I NEVER had to walk down a deserted street late at nite. NYC is notorious for crime, yet I am quite safe walking down the street at 9pm or so at nite since there are alot of people around and I am very sensible in terms of being aware of my surroundings. However, I also know that it's not a good idea for me to be wandering any deserted city street at nite by myself. My hometown is considered extremely safe and likely on the same levels as Maastricht, since the incidence of rape is also 1/3 the U.S. national average (google Flower Mound, TX). Violent crime is 1/10th the national average. I'm actually an excellent judge of relative risk. Yet I certainly don't put myself in a situation where I am alone at nite walking down a street that I'm not familiar with. If I have to travel into the city at nite, I never do so alone. You might suggest I have a choice as to whether I attend IETF meetings, I contend that the logistics of the meetings should ensure that folks don't have to deal with these sorts of situations. I do not think I should have to inconvience someone else who has also had a very long day to take an extra 20 minutes, so that they could walk me back to my hotel. I also did not have to travel on a train alone late at nite in San Francisco. While, Glen suggested I needed a better travel agent, AFAIK, travel agents have no control over thunderstorms in the U.S. Midwest, nor do they have any insight into whether someone will encounter flight delays as a result of the weather. In hindsight of course, I should have made plans to just spend the nite in Brussels upon my arrival and then travel to Maastricht the next day. Or, to just bail on my connection from London to Brussels and take the Eurostar (and pay the exorbitant fee for a lst minute ticket and losing my luggage since they would destroy it in Heathrow if I didn't get on the place). [Don't even get into the discussion as to why I checked my bag - that's another whole boatload of whining that has no relevance to IETF meeting planning]. However, having traveled to many places in Europe, including small towns, I've never had this sort of problem, so was not able to anticipate such. Certainly, if I had to travel to Maastricht again, I would be able to plan accordingly (and would just pay the extra money and rent a car). Best Regards, Mary. On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On 8/28/10 10:29 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: >> So, if all you guys (and it's been all guys from what I've seen) would >> just consider how you would feel if you either had access to very >> little food (think 4 days without a real meal and subsisting on >> illegally imported nuts and dried fruit for 4 days) or if your >> wife /daughters/girlfriends were having to travel alone on a train >> late at night or navigate a city they don't know alone at nite, then >> perhaps you'll have a modicum of insight into some of these concerns. >> [BTW, the information on safety on the host site were certainly not >> relevant to my personal concerns]. > > The incidence of rape in the netherlands is about 1/3 that of the city > in which you normally live in, the homocide rate is 1/15. certain kinds > of property crime are known to be pretty high. By most measures of > personal well-being the netherlands is one of the safest countries in > the world. > > You stood at least an order of magnitude higher probability of being > accosted or assulted on the street when we were situated in the > tenderlion in san franciso, so either you're a fairly bad judge of > relative risk (most humans are) or the unfamilar has produced uncessary > concerns. > >> As I said in prior posts, I think Maastricht would be a lovely city >> for a vacation/holiday, but it is a very poor choice for a business >> meeting. And, actually the scattered nature of the hotels made if far >> more difficult to interact with IETF friends than it is when the >> hotels are all close to the venue and there are fewer choices. >> >> Regards, >> Mary. >> >> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo) >> <hannes.tschofenig@xxxxxxx> wrote: >>> Hi Jordi, >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have not seen an IETF meeting where people have not complained about >>> the layout of the venue, how to get there, the city itself, the >>> proximity to some nearby countries, the weather, the hotel, the number >>> of offered hotels, the high crime rate, etc. etc. >>> >>> The place that makes 95% of the typical IETF meetings participants happy >>> does not even exist. >>> >>> Maybe it would be useful to highlight the positive aspects of traveling >>> instead. Maastricht is an interesting city and you saw lots of your IETF >>> friends again. >>> >>> Ciao >>> Hannes >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf mailing list >>> Ietf@xxxxxxxx >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf mailing list >> Ietf@xxxxxxxx >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf >> > > _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf