More recalls? How many have we had? I looked into what it would take to engage the recall process. I don't think it is possible to use it without tearing the whole organization appart. With reference to John's recent campaigns I note that we still have a situation where IETF practice is to employ a two stage standards process but the process documents describe a mythical three stage process. The IESG appears to be unwilling to either change the process document to reflect reality or to begin applying the three stage process. And I don't even have visibility into the process to know which individuals are the holdouts. The only response I am ever going to get back is the passive voice 'people on the IESG were not happy with the proposal'. This is a real business issue for me, not a theoretical one. I spend too much time having to counter FUD claims that some IETF protocol or other is 'merely' draft and that it should not therefore be considered. People in the Internet area understand the mendacity but this is not the case in banking. I can explain the fact that according to the IETF HTTP 1.1 is still a draft standard but in doing so I have to conceed the fact that the IETF processes are broken at which point the proprietary FUD peddled chips in. There are cases where consensus does not work. This is one of them. There is clearly no consensus in the IESG to either follow the process document or to fix it to match current practice. So we have the organization stuck in a decade long deadlock. This is where you need to have leadership (another thing that the NOMCON process is expressly designed to exclude). > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@xxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 8:57 AM > To: dcrocker@xxxxxxxx; sob@xxxxxxxxxxx > Cc: ietf@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: "Discuss" criteria > > Dave, Scott, > > At the risk of repeating what a few others have said in > different form, a few observations. Please understand that > these comments come from someone who has been more > consistently and loudly critical about even a hint of IESG > arrogance and assertions of their power than either of you > and who has formally proposed a significant number of ways of > dealing with those problems --real or imagined-- than, I > think, anyone else in the community... none of which > proposals have gone anywhere. > > I believe that, ultimately, the IETF has to pick IESG members > who can do the job of evaluating documents and consensus > about it and then let them to do that job. And we had better > pick people to do that job who technical judgment and good > sense we trust. If we can't do that, then we are in > big-time, serious, > trouble: trouble from which no set of rules or procedures can > rescue us. Much as it makes me anxious, I think we ultimately > need to let an AD raise a Discuss because he or she has a bad > feeling in his or her gut... and pick people who will use > that particular reason with considerable care and who will > challenge each other and work to understand the objection and > either better document it or remove it as appropriate. > > If that discussion is abused in particular cases, I think it > means that we need more appeals and, if there is a pattern, more > recalls. In a long-term tradition of the IETF that we seem to > be losing, we may also need more specific, focused, public > abuse (in plenaries and otherwise) from the community, not just from > regular complainers and microphone-hogs. What we don't need is > more rigid rules that either try to anticipate every > circumstance or that give too strong a presumption to the > wisdom of a too-homogeneous WG, especially at a time when > fewer and fewer documents seem to be getting widespread > community review during Last Call. > > In that context, I can only applaud this document, not as a > set of rules that the IESG has to follow, but as one that > informs the community about the mechanisms the IESG is using. > Information is good. And, if the IESG discovers that it > needs to update that information every time its membership > changes (or every time they discover something isn't working > and make an adjustment according), I'd consider that a sign > of good health: > at least it would show that, at least in this area, > historical rules and behavior patterns are not constraining > current thinking to the extent that replacing IESG members > doesn't bring about change. > > At the risk of giving a sales pitch, my other proposals have > been intended to reinforce the model above: I think it is > always going to be hard, in our community, to find IESG > members who are good at doing these kinds of technical > evaluations and sensitive to the issues involved and who are > also outstanding managers, cat-herders, bureaucrats, finance > experts, and experts on > organizational behavior. So I have sought to separate some of > those roles. I think that long terms on the IESG tend to > breed detachment from the community and a tendency to put > IESG judgment ahead of that of the community and I don't > think we can solve that with more rules about IESG behavior. > So I have sought to give Nomcoms guidance about terms, to > change the nomination/appointment model, and to make the > recall mechanism > more effective in practice. And I have sought ways to simplify > the job and reduce the workload in the hope that we can go > back to treating a term or two on the IESG as an obligation > that the right sorts of people owe the community, rather than > a position to be sought and in the more general hope of > broadening the pool of people who are willing to serve. > > The fact that my proposals for change have not been > instituted tells me that the community does not see a serious > problem and doesn't believe that changes are needed. While I > believe that the lack of acceptance of changes has been IESG > recalcitrance and efforts to protect the authority and ways > of working with they are familiar and comfortable, I don't > think that changes the conclusion: the community has ways, > however unpleasant, for imposing changes that have community > consensus but that it IESG doesn't like and has chosen to not > use them. I disagree, but I think the consensus-in-practice > is fairly clear and I have to accept that. > > To me, it is in the areas of adjusting IESG scope, > responsiveness, and membership that we need to do our tuning, > not by trying to restrict the IESG to particular ways of > doing its technical evaluations or the statements ADs can > make about specifications submitted for approval and > especially what arguments an AD can use for forcing the rest > of the IESG to take a harder look and initiate an in-depth > discussion (internally and, if appropriate, with the > community). More hard rules about how the IESG does its > technical evaluation work won't, IMO, help us in the common, > ordinary, cases and, when an exceptional one arrives, such > rules are likely to force the IESG into making the wrong > decisions and doing the wrong things and thereby hurt the > IETF and the Internet. > > john > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf